Respector Of Person

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Southern, Dec 10, 2004.

  1. Southern

    Southern
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    Arminians say that Calvinism makes God a respector of persons. I would like to point out that it is the Arminian that does this, not the Calvinist. Notice:

    1.)Calvinist's say that God chose individuals based on nothing "inside or about" the person that set him apart from others. It was simply according to His own "purpose" and "will" (Eph. 1:11). However:

    2.)The Arminian says that what makes one differ from another is their "faith". This puts the choice of God on something done in or by the person therefore God chooses based on something done by the person.

    In conlusion:

    This would give him room to glory because:

    "The one who recieved Christ must not have been as hard, rebellious, or captive as the one who rejected... If belief arises from the unregenerate heart and distinguishes one man from another while all had the same natural or bestowed capacity, then the exercising of that capacity must be better than not exercixing it. If it is better (and arises from a capability of the unregenerate), then the believer has contributed to his own salvation."


    - Quote from "By His Grace and For His Glory: A Historical, Theological, and Practical Study of the Doctrines of Grace in Baptist Life".
     
  2. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Southern,
    Your premise is wrong!

    In point 2, You say that faith is a Work, something that one does. If that is the case no man can have salvation because scriptures declare that salvation is "not of works". However, from Genesis to Revelation it is clear that human faith in God is what makes the difference to God!

    Show us one scripture that declares that God has saved even one human who had no faith in God, and you may make your point! But until you do, we have no reason to accept your premise.
     
  3. Southern

    Southern
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    Wes,
    First of all the word "work" is not in the #2 listed above.

    Secondly if you are gonna post please address the topic because no one denies that a person has to believe to be saved.

    In Christ
     
  4. billwald

    billwald
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    For all we know, God used the Montecarlo method for choosing the elect.
     
  5. Wes Outwest

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    Billwald,
    God uses the "in Christ" method of selection.
     
  6. Southern

    Southern
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    Wes,
    It would be very beneficial if you would explain what you are trying to say and actually address the first post.

    In Christ
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    OK,
    You said this,
    However, you probably don't understand that something "done by the person" is a work. Something "in a person" is an attribute.
    The difference is that a work is never an attribute of the one doing the work, where as an attribute is that which is true of the person. FAITH is an ATTRIBUTE, not a work! Other attributes include: Grace, mercy, Love, Faithfulness, tenderness, and on the flip side, hate, malice, hurtfulness, etc. Though these are not all that are attributes they do give some idea of what where I am coming from.

    By believing, one does contribute to one's own salvation.

    But:
    Believing does not atone for sin which Jesus did so that through believing we can have everlasting life.
    Believing does not cleanse one from unrighteousness, Confession of sins and recieving forgiveness for them does cleanse one from unrighteousness ("confession is good for the soul").
    Believing does not make one holy!

    However, Believing does SANCTIFY one to the object of belief, meaning that what you believe in is what you are devoted to.

    Believing is an "in the person" attribute, not a work that a person does. Worship is what one who believes does! See the difference?
     
  8. Southern

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    Wes,

    Wes, I want to thank you personally for coming out and admitting this. This proves my point exactly. According to your view, God bases His election on something the person does or is. This makes God a respector of Persons.

    Calvinism says that God is no respector of persons and nothing inside or about (a specific "attribute" as you called it) a person causes Him to choose one over another, it is simply according to the "good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:11).

    In Conclusion- You will be able to boast and say that you have contributed to your own salvations. God "elected" you because of something about you that set you apart from others. Therefore this makes God a respector of persons according to your view.

    In Christ
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    Southern, consider this. "Election" is not what you want it to be or what you understand it to be!

    God established before the foundation of the world that human faith in God is what distinguishes one human person from another. Look at all the scriptures Old and New Testament that deal with human faith in God! In the Old Testament, it is human faith in God that God sees in man as righteousness! In the New Testament it is no different!

    God's plan does not include selecting before he creates who will and who will not be saved! He did however establish the Plan whereby whosoever does what is required of him would be saved. In the old covenent of Law, it was obedience to the Law that made one "righteous", None could fulfill all the law thus none were righteous. However since God established before the foundation of the world that faith is the criteria for salvation, God found faith in Noah, in Abraham, in Isaac, in elisha and elijah, etc, etc, etc. Now we have no way of knowing how many there were who had faith so I'll not speculate there. But by the examples given us in scripture, it is always those who have faith in God that were considered righteous. Yet because of sin, not one of them could escape the penalty for sin come judgment day.

    Therefore, God who loved the world so much, gave us His only begotten son, whose mission it was from before the foundation of the world, to die a holy, totally innocent of sin sacrifice for ALL the sins of the world, (see John 3:16,17), and there is no way that anyone can limit the meaning of "World" to only some nebulous "elect".

    So, I believe that since God's plan does not include some nebulous "elect" that the meaning of elect is "all who "elect" to believe in Jesus", the son of God. All who so "elect" get their names written in the Lambs Book of Life which was established before the foundation of the world.

    Thus it is that "the elect" are saved from God's wrath at the judgment because their names are found in the Lambs Book of Life, and they pass from death into everlasting life, which is the definition of SALVATION!
     
  10. Southern

    Southern
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  11. Southern

    Southern
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    Wes,

    You say that the reason that you are saved (one of the elect) is because of you "contributed" to your salvation and believing. So the reason that you are saved and many are not today is because you did something better than they did and believed. Something you did that they did not do. The reason that you are saved and not your neighbor is not God, but you. God is trying to save everybody, the only person that made the difference between them and you was "you", Wes. What a swell guy.

    This made God save you based on something that you did that set you apart. This is a respector of person. According to your view, God took into account things about people that caused him to save you and not others.

    The whole New Covenant is not about God making a plan and seeing who would respond but ensuring that they would! All of it is about what God will do!

    Ez. 36: I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

    The New Testament teaches that God has elected a people that "will" believe. The Bible says we believe because we are the elect, not that we become part of the elect because we believe:

    The Bible in contrast to your view says that we believe because we are the "elect".

    John 6:37 says that those given to Jesus by the Father are the ones that "come" (believe) on Him. Acts 13:48 says that all those appointed to eternal life "believed".
    Rom. 8:28- says that those who are "predestined" are the ones who are justified.
    John 10:27 says that the sheep (elect) are the ones that "hear" His voice and follow Him. You have to be a sheep to "believe".
    2 Thess. 2:13 says we were chosen to "believe".

    In Conclusion- Your view makes God a respector of persons, and hey why wouldnt somebody respect you? You contributed to your own salvation and did something "better" than all the other lost people.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    You say that the reason that you are saved (one of the elect) is because of you "contributed" to your salvation and believing. So the reason that you are saved and many are not today is because you did something better than they did and believed. Something you did that they did not do. The reason that you are saved and not your neighbor is not God, but you. God is trying to save everybody, the only person that made the difference between them and you was "you", Wes. What a swell guy.</font>[/QUOTE]No that is not what I said, that is what YOU said I said, and you are lying by so saying that I said that! I'm pretty sure that Lying is one of the things a true believer does not do!

    You have either not read my posts, for if you did, you would understand what I posted. But alas you do not want to understand, you'd rather remain blindly bound up in your own interpretation of scripture.

    The whole New Covenant is not about God making a plan and seeing who would respond but ensuring that they would! All of it is about what God will do!</font>[/QUOTE]The New covenant is all about God executing the plan that he made from before the foundation of the world.

    Better find out who Ezekiel is addressing!

    And indeed many are! God gives the reason to believe to the whole world and many are believing into the election of getting their names written in the book of life!

    Indeed, God the father has given man every incentive to believe, and all who do believe, get their names written in the book of Life and are thereby spared being cast into the lake of fire.

    Southern, you fool yourself in your arrogant believe that faith is a work! It is not! It never has been! It never will be a work! Therefore one who has faith did not do something to get himself recognized by God! My contribution to My salvation is My obedience to God's command that I believe! Therefore I believe, and since Jesus said, "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life", I believe, therefore I am saved!

    Ignore the truth all you want Southern, your ignorance is not going to change the truth!
     
  13. Southern

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    Wes,
    You "DID" make this statement in the seventh post from the top of the page. You said that:

    By believing, one does contribute to one's own salvation.

    I refuse to respond to you in the same manner that you responded to me by saying that I am lying and lying is not something that a true believer does, impying that I am not a true believer. Wes, If you do not mind me asking, about how old are you?

    In Christ...
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    The following is what I did not say! YOU say that I said that, and I did not! If you are going to say that I said something, you'd better quote me "exactly" instead of spinning what I actually said to make your point! It is the liar that spins what others say!
    My age is not relevent to this discussion! However, I am in my 5th decade of "hearing" the word and believing in and Having faith in Jesus. I was a teenager when I first came to believe in Jesus!
     
  15. Gershom

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    "What shall I do to be saved?"
    "Do nothing! You may be one of the elect!"
     
  16. Gershom

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    "What shall I do to be saved?"
    "Hope that you are one of the elect! Uhh... wait. Doing even something like "hoping" would give YOU credit. So..."
     
  17. Gershom

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    "What shall I do to be saved?"
    "Nothing!"
     
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Fence-sitting will surely get you a ticket to Hell. [​IMG]
     
  19. Gershom

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    Nobody fence-sitting on my side, brother.
     
  20. whatever

    whatever
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    Calvinists don't believe this. What are you trying to accomplish?
     

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