Response-able??

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, Dec 5, 2013.

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  1. Protestant

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    “Proactive people recognize that they are ‘response-able.’ They don't blame genetics, circumstances, conditions, or conditioning for their behavior. They know they choose their behavior." (Dr. Stephen R. Covey, Non-Christian Millionaire Life Coach Guru)

    “When you are ‘response able’ you are able to choose your response.” (Nathan S. Collier, Non-Christian Millionaire Real Estate/Life Coach Guru and Philanthropist)

    "It is not merely a command that implies response-ability and denies the concept of total inability......... It's RESPONSIBILITY that implies the ABILITY to RESPOND." (Skandelon, hard-working Texas Baptist Arminian with Pelagian overtones)

    Try as I might to find the term, ‘response-able’ or any of its other root forms, such as ‘responsible’ or ‘responsibility’ in the Bible I was un-able to do so. (I used Strong’s Concordance.)

    However, I was able to find 'response-able' in treatises written by many New Age Gurus of the secular world. A few I have posted above.

    I then used the online Free Dictionary as a source to help broaden my word search.

    The first definition of ‘responsible’ was quite telling:

    “Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.”

    With this definition I was able to find corroborating Scripture:

    But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.”​

    Jesus and Scripture warns that all men shall one day give an account of their lives to God.

    Even the most innocuous words spoken will be judged.

    By including the fact of idle words being judged, Jesus is warning that no man will escape condemnation by attempting to show himself ‘good enough’ to enter the Kingdom of God…..for all men have spoken idle words.

    Thus, man’s human ability to give a good and perfect account of himself in the Day of Judgment is nil.

    “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one,that is, God.”

    ABILITY: “The quality of being able to do something.” (Free Dictionary)

    ABLE: “Having sufficient power or resources to accomplish something.” (Free Dictionary)

    Now let us look at what the Bible says about man’s human power/ability to respond in a manner favorable to God’s command to “repent ye and believe the Gospel.”

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see --- he is not able to see, discern, perceive, understand, he has not the power to see, discern, perceive, understand --- the kingdom of God.
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter --- has not the ability to enter, has not the power to enter --- into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Man is born in the flesh. He must be reborn in the Spirit before he can repent and believe the Gospel.

    It is impossible to repent and believe that which you by nature cannot believe nor wish to believe and repent.

    "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

    CONCLUSION: Man is accountable to God. Yet he is unable/powerless to please God in the flesh.

    Thus, man is accountable, though by nature, not willing or able.

    It is only when regenerated that man is willing and able to see, discern, perceive, and understand the beauty of Christ, the Gospel, and the hideousness of his sin.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Jesus never said "unless a man be born again he cannot repent".

    Jesus never said "unless a man be born again he cannot be drawn to ME"

    Jesus never said "unless a man is born again he cannot see and be convicted of sin".

    John 9
    38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him. 39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    The text you quote from Romans 8 is not at all about the lost not being able to repent when convicted by the Holy Spirit -

    Rather it is about the Lost - unsaved person being unable to keep the Law of God perfectly.

    [FONT=&quot]
    Rom 8[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.

    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]
    [/QUOTE]


    Rev 14:12 "here is the perseverance of the SAINTS here are they that KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Are you being serious?

    1. How many quotes do you think I could produce from doing a google search that mention determinism? How many of those do you suppose are atheistic?

    2. The fallacy called 'guilt by association' attempts to find anyone who might agree with some point of your opponents belief and then demean their entire argument based on that connection. It is a very immature approach and that most objective readers can see through.

    3. Since when do Calvinistic scholars reject the concept of responsibility?

    In his book Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God (Chicago: InterVarsity Press, 1961) J. I. Packer argues that the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man is an antinomy. He defines "antinomy" as "an appearance of contradiction between conclusions which seem equally logical, reasonable or necessary" (p. 18). It "is neither dispensable nor comprehensible...It is unavoidable and insoluble. We do not invent it, and we cannot explain it" (p. 21). God "orders and controls all things, human actions among them"...yet "He holds every man responsible for the choices he makes and the courses of action he pursues" (p. 22). "To our finite minds this is inexplicable" (p. 23).​

    I went to bible gateway and typed in "Responsibility" and got over 21 pages of verses listed. I'm sure I would get many more if I used other synonyms or forms of that word...but again, why would any bible believing Christian deny human responsibility?

    Now, if you are talking about my specific break down of the word (response-able)...that is an obvious attempt on my part to reveal the root meaning of this word that some attempt to deny. I do not believe it is accurate to call someone responsible who is not able to respond. Even 'accountable' doesn't work to me because how does one give an account for another person's choice?

    Calvinists use the words 'responsible' and 'accountable' but what they REALLY mean is, "punishable." Men are punishable for what God has determined and for that which the man has absolutely no control over.

    Calvinists teach that men are 'without excuse' while at the exact same time giving unbeliever the BEST excuse for their unbelief in the world! What better excuse is there than "I was born hated by my maker and he determined me to be this way." What profit does such a teaching bring to individuals?
     
  5. Protestant

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    According to the Online Etymology Dictionary the root meaning of ‘responsible’ is:

    “1590s, "answerable" (to another, for something), from obsolete French responsible (13c., Modern French responsable, as if from Latin *responsabilis), from Latin respons-, past participle stem of respondere "to respond" (see respond). Meaning "accountable for one's actions" is attested from 1640s; that of "reliable, trustworthy" is from 1690s. Retains the sense of "obligation" in the Latin root word.”

    This meaning corresponds exactly with the biblical meaning:

    “accountable for one’s actions” [sinful as they may be]; “answerable to another” [God].​

    In no way shape or form does the Bible define ‘responsible’ in the terms you and the New Age Gurus define it.

    Man is broken and cannot fix himself.

    Not even with the help of all the kings horses and all the kings men.

    All the positive ‘response-able’ thinking in the world will not help him.

    "God be merciful to me a sinner."

    It is when sinful man reaches the end of himself that he seeks the true God.

    It is when sinful man realizes he is ‘not able’ and throws himself upon the mercy of God that God responds.

    The sinful man who does so is the same man whom the Holy Spirit has irresistibly drawn, regenerated and given the initial gifts of repentance and faith in Christ.

    The same man, when taught the doctrines of grace, embraces their truths, knowing full well that his salvation was 100% due to God’s unconditional love, grace and mercy….which will never cease.

    That same man refuses to take any credit whatsoever for his salvation.

    Unlike the Arminian/Pelagian members on this board.
     
  6. Protestant

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    Bob, I for one give you an 'A' for zealousness.

    Frankly, I do not see how you are able to hold down a full time job, as well as a family, and still find the time to post as you do.

    However, having read your theological viewpoints over the last several months, I cannot find it in my spirit the need to carry on a meaningful dialogue with you.

    All that need be said has already been said....over and over.

    I do wish you well in all your endeavors.
     
  7. Skandelon

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    What are you talking about? Even in your cut and paste definition above (where you cut and pasted only the parts that suit you), the definition fits mine.

    One part reads, "past participle stem of respondere "to respond""

    What is a response for a corpse? Total Inability teaches that men are born unable to respond, yet you claim men are responsible even by this definition? HOW?

    Men aren't responding in your system they are doing as programmed by their creator, period. Just own your system.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    You said

    My first response provided an actual Bible text that tests your assumption above - via scripture.




    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Jesus never said "unless a man be born again he cannot repent".

    Jesus never said "unless a man be born again he cannot be drawn to ME"

    Jesus never said "unless a man is born again he cannot see and be convicted of sin".

    John 9
    38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him. 39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.




    You then respond that after one post on this particular point where scripture is not in support of your suggestion - you are done.


    I make observations as in the case above.

    I post Bible details that do not always fit the traditions of others.

    Some like to get into those details to see if their traditions will survive the Bible when it comes to the very area where the Bible challenges those traditions.

    I believe in free will - and others have the free will to choose to follow a given subject through the Bible details or simply stop at some point and be interested in some other subject.

    Either way -- I am not complaining.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Dec 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2013
  9. Skandelon

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    This is an uneducated rebuttal of our system, as we don't believe faith credits or merits our salvation. Asking for forgiveness doesn't merit being forgiven. The Prodigal Son didn't earn or merit the father's reception based on his willingness to return home, that was totally a choice of the father based on his own grace. The son deserved to be punished, not rewarded. And his coming home didn't merit that reward...even if "the coming home" is the son's free choice.

    You have made the foundational error of thinking that faith somehow earns or merit God's grace and it doesn't. God gives grace to humble because He is gracious, not because we are humble. Scripture teaches, "Humble yourselves and you will be exalted...for God gives grace to the humble."

    It doesn't teach God will irresistibly cause you to be humble so as to merit his grace.
     
  10. preacher4truth

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    And that right there is spot on. :applause::thumbs:
     
  11. quantumfaith

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    And that right there is spot on. :thumbs:
     
  12. quantumfaith

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    And that right there is spot on......too. :thumbs:
     
  13. Van

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    Calvinism simply presents one absurd doctrine after another. God predestines whatsoever comes to pass requires acknowledging that God predestines each and every one of our sins. Calvinism, other than hyper-Calvinism, denies this, which is, wait for it..., absurd.
     
  14. Protestant

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    I understand you “do not believe.”

    But what matters is what the Lord believes.

    The Lord believes all men are accountable to Him. None will be able to stand before Him justified, who have not been born of the Spirit.

    Spiritual birth is the sovereign gracious work of God alone according to the good pleasure of His will contingent on nothing in man.

    Scripture teaches men universally ‘respond’ negatively to the true God.

    “There is none [Jew or Gentile] that seeketh after [the true] God.”
    Men hate the true God.

    “Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding……..”

    What more proof does one need besides the crucifixion of Christ….the most hateful act in all history?

    It is impossible for man to love who or what he naturally opposes and hates.

    “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.”​


    Man is born a slave to sin and Satan, whom he willfully serves.

    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.”​


    “Ye are of your father the devil.”​


    Scripture declares them punishable…..i.e., liable to/worthy of punishment.

    “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”​


    Men are punished for what they freely, willfully and wickedly chose to do as natural-born sinners who hate the Holy God.

    There are few sinners who claim they lacked control over their actions and words.

    The ‘Son of Sam’ serial killer comes to mind. He claimed to receive his commands to kill from his neighbor’s dog.

    Did you also hear mysterious voices or experience forces commanding you to sin?

    The freedom of God to permit, direct and order sin which He does not approve is another discussion altogether.

    This classic Arminian argument of yours was predicted by the Holy Spirit. For Paul proposes this very argument in Romans 9:18-19:

    Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?​


    To sum up your case, as well as the case of the naysayers in verse 19:

    If it is the Lord who is the sole determiner as to who will be among the undeserving Elect as well as who will be among the deserving Reprobate, then certainly the Reprobate who was passed by and not bestowed saving grace has a viable case when he pleads injustice on God’s part. Furthermore, what chance for salvation did the Reprobate have since no man can overcome God’s Will of Decree?

    But alas, it is not as if the Reprobate cried out to God for salvation, admitting he was a lowly sinner not worthy of God’s love and mercy and God said, ‘Sorry, but I have already decided and you are not among the number of Elect.'

    No. The Reprobate hates the true God.

    Furthermore, merciful grace is not something man deserves or earns.

    It is freely given according to the good pleasure of God’s will to save.

    God does not owe man salvation.

    God does owe man justice.

    The Reprobate will experience God’s fair and holy justice.

    The Elect do and will forever experience God's merciful grace in Christ.

    Christ experienced God’s fair and holy justice on the cross when He was punished in the stead of all the Elect throughout history.

    The Elect will not experience God’s justice, but will see it in action at the Great White Throne Judgment.

    Whatever God has declared in Holy Writ is profitable = able to profit the soul of the Elect.

    “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”​


    For me personally, knowledge of God’s unconditional election of some, as well as the deserved reprobation of the many, gives me cause to revere the power of God to do with His own as He pleases.

    It causes me to revere the unconditional love of God to love one as odious and undesirable as myself.

    It causes me to revere the justice of God which I most certainly deserved, but for the mercy and love of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, whom I will always revere.

    In short, if our Holy God can love me, He can also love the most vile sinner and save him to the uttermost.

    For God's undeserving love, grace and mercy knows no bounds.

    Skandelon, if the truth be told, your argument and the arguments of all Arminians and Pelagians on this Board is not with me or Calvinists in general, but with the Lord God Almighty.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    True.

    The Lord also believes that "God so Loved the WORLD --- yes really"

    The Lord also believes Christ "Draws ALL MEN unto Him" John 12:32

    The Lord also believes that the DRAWING is what enables men to come to Christ (John 6)

    The Lord also believes that The Holy Spirit is convicting the entire world of "sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

    And the Lord believes "God is NOT partial" Romans 2:11 arbitrarily selecting out the FEW of Matt 7 to be saved and the MANY of Matt 7 to be lost.

    The Lord believes that Christ is the "Light that coming into the World - enlightens EVERY man" John 1.

    As seen in the texts above - the argument of Calvinists is not with Arminians - it is "with the text".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Dec 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2013
  16. Skandelon

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    We both agree that the Lord holds men accountable/responsible. But only one of us believes men actually are accountable/responsible. That is the point. There is NO REASON to believe men that God treats as responsible are not actually response-able.

    By believing we may have life, not the other way around.

    Where does that verse mention the cross and the gospel appeal to be reconciled through Christ, and the sending of the Holy Spirit? I must have missed that part. Because when you read that WHOLE chapter (Rom 3) you find there is now a righteousness which is attainable through faith....the gospel. You are looking at the bad news as proof that the good news isn't really attainable (see my signature line)

    Even if God loves that man, send his son to die for that man, appeals for that man to be reconciled and send the Holy Spirit to convict that man of his sin? Even you believe its possible if God graces the man, the only difference is that we don't believe that grace is irresistibly applied, remember?

    Question begging.
     
  17. Protestant

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    All men are commanded to repent and believe the truth of God.

    Yet all men do not.

    The fault lies not in the command which is holy and righteous.

    Nor does the fault lie in the One who commands.

    The fault lies in sinful man who despises God and His commands.

    Jesus explains that the love of God is proven through keeping His commandments.

    Adam was the first man to despise God and His command.

    Paul explains that the sin of Adam was imputed to the entire human race.

    Thus, all men are born despising the true God and His commands.

    Man’s continued hatred of the true God and His commands were exacerbated by the immoral crucifixion of Christ.

    Throughout history God’s people were/are persecuted and often killed proving man’s continued hatred of the true God and His commands.

    Hatred does not alleviate man’s accountability to God.

    Crimes against God’s majesty and law will, of necessity, be punished.

    Our holy God cannot deny His execution of justice at the end of the world, though He may delay it for the sake of the Elect.
     
  18. Protestant

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    We love because He first loved us.

    We sinful God-haters now love Him because He first loved us in eternity.

    He proved His love by sending Christ on our behalf to satisfy God's just and righteous need to punish our sin.

    As Paul so eloquently states, "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

    The 'all things' includes all the necessary gifts to fulfill the conditions of salvation.

    To infer sinful, God-hating man has the power to change his nature and disposition to that of a God-loving obedient disciple is to infer the lie posed in the Garden: 'ye shall be as gods.'
     
  19. webdog

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  20. Protestant

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    No greater preacher exists than Jesus Christ.

    Yet He was crucified, rather than embraced, honored and obeyed.

    You consistently miss the HUGE message our Lord is signifying by not examining the most despicable act by sinful men in human history.

    Furthermore, Christ's murder was instigated by the religious leadership who claimed to be favored sons of God.

    Conclusion: It is possible to be very religious, yet be haters of the true God.

    Even the people shouted for the release of a murderer, rather than Jesus.

    They, too, lacked faith despite the works and words of the world's greatest preacher.

    CONCLUSION: Faith is the gift of God to men, not the gift of men to God.
     
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