Response on abortion issue

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Gina B, Sep 21, 2003.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    Diane, while your stories of success in odd situations are wonderful, (absolutely adorable baby pic you posted!) none of them were in situations which were impossible for a child to survive in. Find one ectopic tubal pregnancy that survived. This is the most common type of ectopic pregnancy, the rest are very rare. You are a woman, you most likely realize that this section of a woman is about the width and shape of a very narrow blood vessel, and will burst if a child continues to grow in it long long before able to live on it's own, resulting in death or serious medical complications to the mother and 100% fatality rate in the infant.
    COMPUTER JUNKIE:
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Gina,

    I think the major difference between you and us (Diane, CJ, and I) is that we believe that the same God who raised Lazurus from the dead, brought the dead girl back to life, and raised from the dead after 3 days can still work miracles in the lives of these mothers and babies, and no, when we say miracles, we don't mean abortion. You, apparently don't. We also believe in the soveriengty of God and that the fate of the mother and child should be left in his hands instead of us taking matters in our own hands and murdering the baby.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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  4. NarrowWay

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    But God can't work miracles on prisioners on death row or on people who have different religious or political beliefs like the people in Iraq? This is not a redirection. The topic is not abortion. The topic is sanctity of human life.
     
  5. dianetavegia

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    And what is the cause of these pregnancies?

    Disagree completely Gina. A baby growing in the liver??? You think that's not 'impossible'? With God, nothing is impossible!

     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

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    But God can't work miracles on prisioners on death row or on people who have different religious or political beliefs like the people in Iraq? This is not a redirection. The topic is not abortion. The topic is sanctity of human life. </font>[/QUOTE]The title of the thread is "Response on Abortion Issue". Good try, but no go. Whatever miracle is worked between God and a murderer is between them and will be worked out in heaven as with the theif on the cross. Notice that God did not save his physical life, but did save his soul. The other obvious difference, as has been pointed out before, is that the baby has committed no crime and has murdered nobody. Your comparison is irrelevant in every single way.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. dianetavegia

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    [​IMG]
    This baby grew in mom's liver!


    [​IMG] This is a baby born in England. Ectopic pregnancy. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2521519.stm

    World: Europe

    Doctors save ectopic baby


    In a medical first, a mother has given birth in London to triplets, one of whom developed outside her womb.

    The baby boy, Ronan Ingram, grew in the abdominal cavity, attached to the outer wall of the uterus with his own blood supply, while his two sisters developed normally.

    But, because Ronan's position made both a normal birth and a standard Caesarian impossible, doctors had to deliver the babies in a complicated operation after only 29 weeks of pregnancy.

    The consultant in charge said that, because of the risk of bleeding that could have killed all three babies and the mother, Jane Ingram, a team of 26 staff were on stand-by for the birth. It's the first time that both a mother and an ectopic baby have survived a multiple birth.

    She and all three babies are said to be doing well in hospital.

    From the newsroom of the BBC World Service
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/443741.stm
     
  8. timothy 1769

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    I have a couple of views. Killing an unborn baby that will likely kill the mother is a form of self defense.

    Exodus 22:1
    If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. 2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. 3 If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

    But then again, we have these verses:

    Matthew 5
    38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

    If I was ever in this situation (not too likely as a man, heh), I would pray for the strength not to kill the baby in self defense and ask for a miracle.
     
  9. Gina B

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    Diane, I asked for one case of a tubal pregnancy that ended successfully. None of those were tubal.
    I don't know about other pregnancies outside of the uterus and their risks. If the risk was as substantial and a person didn't feel led to let the pregnancy continue I would probably say it's ok to abort in those situations too, but I don't know enough about it. If the result usually isn't death than I will say the opposite. If there's a 50/50 chance and it happened to me I'd say it would be between God and myself to decide whether an abortion would be right or wrong.
    God CAN work a miracle in anything, but in a life and death situation where he has already provided the knowledge and treatment I will not refuse to use it. I'll pray for him to intervene in the meantime and miraculously put the child in it's normal place or heal the child or whatever the situation calls for, but it's going to be on my way to the hospital to abort that child if it will die regardless and prevent my death and/or attempt to save the life of my baby.
    Gina
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Translation: I am gonna pray for God to do a miracle, but am not gonna have faith in him to do it. Instead, I am gonna take matters into my own hands and murder the baby. That is what an abortion is.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. dianetavegia

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    So let's see.... STD's, Morning after Pill, Abortions... all greatly increase the chance of a tubal pregnancy .....

    [ September 21, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]
     
  12. computerjunkie

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    Gina, I see that we will continue to disagree on this issue, so further discussion, for me anyway, seems pointless.

    But as I leave this discussion, and knowing what you think about "40 Days of Purpose" and Warren's book, I would still ask that you prayerfully re-read Chapter 2 of Purpose Driven Life, entitled "You Are Not An Accident", look up and meditate on the scripture references given. Read it with the question, "Is abortion OK in some circumstances?"

    I won't even ask that you respond unless you want to. All I ask is that you prayerfully consider this issue, alone, just you and our heavenly Father.

    I think Joseph's comment sums it up:

    In Christ,
    CJ
     
  13. Gina B

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    CJ, I have no reason to not want to respond to you!
    We are going through that book again in church right now, and neat you should mention it because tonight the pastor had everyone bring up different parts of the book that stood out for them and one brought up that chapter along with the abortion issue and said it really hit home for them.
    I have the book still, so I'll look it up. I do disagree to a point of that so far that I know of, and that is in saying God is sovreign and has complete control over life and death, then turning around and basically saying that we are capable of taking that control away from God. In other words, if God meant for a child to live I can't see why he'd place it in a position where it will die, then view the mother as a murderer if she does what she has to do to save her own life. There had to have been a reason for him to allow that to happen.
    I've been in the position of dealing with an ectopic pregnancy. I had an ultrasound after miscarrying a child to make sure that it was a complete miscarriage. They said it was, and no other children were visible on the ultrasound, just the empty bag of waters where one child had been. However, blood tests showed I was still pregnant (rising hormones instead of decreasing). I went in so they could find out where in me the twin was since it obviously was not in the right place! I went in for the third ultrasound and there she was, in the right place, growing fine. It was either a miracle or things were too messy in the ultrasound to see her. I like to think it was a miracle. However, while I prayed for a miracle I also prepared for and planned for surgery to remove her. Apparently it was God's will for her to live, and for her twin to die. Had it not been she wouldn't be here, whether it would have been by her being implanted in a place she couldn't survive and consequently being lost or by me having her removed before she died so that we wouldn't both go. God's wouldn't have been shocked or wringing his hands in distress because I ruined his plans. He knew before it ever happened what would happen and what my response to it would be. He didn't "forget" to save one child and leave the other, both were planned by him and both of their lives were at his mercy and in his ultimate control.
    But...I'll go read over the chapter again with your question in mind and see what happens. It's always worth the time to review beliefs and make sure they're correct or stand up to a challenge!
    Gina
     
  14. Terry_Herrington

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    In 1976 while my wife was giving birth to our son, a complication developed. I instructed the doctor that if a choice had to be made, he was to save the life of my wife.

    As it ended up, both mother and child survived.

    Judging by what some here say I am almost guilty of murder. Well I've had twenty plus years to consider my choice. I can honestly say that I would make the same choice again.
     
  15. Bro. James Reed

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    Tell that to your child.
     
  16. computerjunkie

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    Gina... Thanks so much for sharing your story. Tragic though it is, do you see God's sovereignty in your situation?

    Gina, we often don't know "why" God allows things to happen. He created both of your babies, but His plan was to take one of them to be with Him before she was born. But, Gina, it was HIS plan, and not a decision to be made by you, or by the doctors. Your mind was made up as to what the plan would be. He intervened BEFORE man could take matters into his own hands. Do you see the miracle in that? What an awesome God He is.

    Exactly, Gina. That is the beauty of letting God be God and letting Him be in absolute control. And you have 3 beautiful daughters here and one in heaven, all of whom (along with their mother) are a testimony to God's incredible love.
     
  17. Karen

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    Well, Gina, I have had just such an experience more than once. And I understand, I really do understand your frustration.

    I have been involved in pro-life work for over 15 years. And I have done a lot of different things. (All of them legal.)
    At booths, for example, I have passed out thousands of pieces of literature, and had untold numbers of conversations. I personally organized five city-wide Life Chains. I have talked with over a hundred pastors about their participation or lack thereof in Life Chains and various other projects.

    I have no idea what your respondents including Joseph do pro-life on a practical basis. And he and Diane and others may well do a lot that is pro-life. But I do know that I have heard the same sincere, impassioned arguments from many people who could not join with my group to do anything because we were not pure enough. And as a result, those people admitted to me that they really did nothing at all.
    The National Right to Life Committee, for example, does agree with you, Gina. And for 30 years, they have consistently done more than many people who would not join with them because of a lack of "purity".

    Long ago, we could have outlawed 99.9999% of abortions. The last real chance, in 1982, was foiled in Congress by purists who argued against pragmatists (like me) who were willing for exceptions such as the life of the mother.
    So we still, 21 years later, have 99.9999% more abortions than we could have had.
    In a civil society, waiting for laws that expect all women to voluntarily wait for a miracle in an ectopic pregnancy means that we will never have consensus to change present law and get rid of most abortions.

    Guys, listen to what Gina is really saying. She and I have both been on this board for almost three years, and she is exceedingly pro-life and an able, consistent defender of that fact.
    Maybe you are not like the people that come to my mind from so many years, but I think you need to do a little more research on the subject. The fact that you so easily disagree with Gina simply shows that.

    Karen
     
  18. Helen

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    I worked in a hospital when I was younger. Tubal pregnancies kill.

    Choice: kill two people or kill one?

    We have medical knowledge and technology also because God has allowed us to have it. If one is to ignore a lethal situation, and pray for a miracle, is this not throwing the gift of knowledge and the associated technology back in God's face?

    Do those who prefer praying for a miracle rather than the surgery which would kill the baby but save the mother's life also refuse surgery for a burst appendix? For blocked arteries?

    If your child is in an auto accident and requires surgery to save her life, do you refuse the surgery and pray instead?

    Do both, folks. By all means, always pray in ALL things.

    But when two lives are threatened with certain death and the surgical removal/death of one is necessary for the survival of another, -- well, think of it this way, how would you feel knowing you killed your mother? A woman who may also have been the mother of other living, older children who are now motherless?

    By the way, one of the most painful things that a woman can experience is a tubal pregnancy. The pain cuts like a knife day and night.

    Pain is a warning that something is wrong. Pain is also a gift from God as that warning signal.

    So those who are against surgery for the removal of the baby, which, at this point, honestly cannot feel a thing as no nerve cells have yet formed and the child is nothing more than a clump of cells (please notice, you regular abortion advocates, that I am still calling this a child!), you folks are saying the following

    1. Ignore the pain, or take medication to the extent which could and probably will harm the developing fetus and certainly incapacitate the mother while she is taking it, even if that prayed-for miracle does occur.

    2. Sign a death warrant for the mother just as surely as if a loaded gun were pointed at her head and someone pulled the trigger -- unless God chose to stop the bullet.

    3. Sign a death warrant for the child anyway, as Gina is right, and there are NO examples anywhere in medical literature of a tubal pregnancy being successful in terms of either mother or child, let alone both.


    To answer another question: my oldest son was declared a danger to my health and an abortion was advised. I refused the abortion and he will be 30 next month. However, when we have talked, he told me that should it have come down to it, he would rather have gone straight to the Lord rather than have me die from being pregnant with him. "Better one death than two, Mom, and better me than you if I wasn't even born yet. Especially if I was only a couple of weeks along and didn't even know or feel anything yet." (Those are his approximate words from a couple of conversations.)

    He is a Christian.
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Some of these responses here remind me of this praise song we used to sing when I was a kid. Let me see if I can remember it:

    Ah Lord God,
    Thou hast made the Heavens and the Earth,
    By thy Great Power.

    Ah Lord God,
    Thou hast made the Heavens and the Earth,
    By thine outstretched arm.

    (Everyone sing the Chorus with me)

    Nothing is too difficult for thee (except a tubal pregnancy)

    Nothing is too difficult for thee (except a tubal pregnancy)

    Great and mighty God,
    Great in power and Mighty in Deed (except in tubal pregnancies)

    Nothing, Nothing, absolutely Nothing,

    Nothing is too difficult for thee (except a tubal pregnancy).

    Of course, there is a little bit of sarcasm there to prove the point that there is no limit to what my God can do. The truth is: Nothing is too difficult for my God; not even a tubal pregnancy. The mother and baby are still in his hands and that is where they ought to be left.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  20. Gina B

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    Hypothetical situation: a mother is pregnant with twins. One is tubal and the other is placed normally. We already established that apart from a direct miracle from God removing that child the mom most likely will die and the child will die 100% of the time in such a situation.
    Leave all 3 to die unless God performs a miracle, or abort the child who will die anyhow and let the other two live?
    Do you take non-intervention in life and death situations to the point of letting a person die by not giving them medical intervention when they are ill? Is it not also intervening with the life and death you say should only be in God's hands if you interfere with a person who is dying? Why should interfering with life be any different than interfering with death? Should one be controlled only by God and not the other? :confused:
    CJ, I've read "You are not an accident". He says God planned what day we would live and what day we would die. I agree with that. It isn't an answer to this issue though. A person will die at his/her appointed time, how that death occurs and whether or not we are guilty of sinning in it is a different issue. That isn't answered by this discussion, if anything his viewpoints are contradictory to most people's thoughts on this thread and in accordance with mine when he says God is in control of it all and no matter what his will would have been accomplished. (and the issue of whether his will was accomplished with or without the guilt of our sin upon is separate, but it was still his will)
    Gina
     

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