resurrection and the rapture

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Michael D. Edwards, Apr 18, 2002.

  1. Michael D. Edwards

    Michael D. Edwards
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    Hey gang:

    In reading through the book of The Revelation we find the "souls" under the altar that Christ tells them to wait a little while and then judgement will be executed for the blood that was shed.

    Also, in Rev. 20 we see the "first" resurrection. For those who hold to pre-tribulationism and premillenialism, this would mean that the resurrection is taking place at the beginning of the millenium.

    My question is, if Rev. 20 is speaking of the "first" resurrection where the souls John sees in heaven "come to life" and reign with Chrsit for 1,000 years, how does that match with the saints of the church receiving their glorified bodies as well as those that have fallen asleep in Christ at the rapture? How can that not be the "first" resurrection?

    Thanks for any thoughts!

    Michael

    p.s. I tried registering a new user name and password, before I realized I could change my email in my profile. However, I never received confirmation. I also now can't just change my email on this account since it says someone already registered with that name. I've emailed the administrator and two moderators, but to no avail? Anyone that can help, thank you
     
  2. hrhema

    hrhema
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    What you are reading in the 20th Chapter of the Book of Revelations is the souls under the altar are those who were martyred during the Great Tribulation. There will be two great waves of martyrdom throughout this period of time.

    When all those who were martyred during the Great TRibulation is resurected this is called the First Resurrection. It is the first resurrection since the GReat Tribulation. The one who died by judgement etc during this period of time will not be resurrected until the end of the 1000 year reign and then to stand before the Great White Throne.

    In reality technically the first resurrection of the dead took place the day of Christ's Resurrection when the Old Testament Saints were resurrected and many were seen in the Streets of Jerusalem. The rapture will be a two-fold event.
    The resurrection of those who died in Jesus when their souls will return to their bodies and be glorified and then the catching away of those alive in Christ at this time.

    This is like the confusion with the term the Second Coming of Christ. When Christ came the first time he came to this Earth. When Christ comes in the Rapture he will not come upon the Earth so technically the Rapture is not the Second Coming. This takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation when Christ comes riding on a White Horse with all the church or Saints and he will descend upon the Mount of Olives and it will split into and then he will destroy the Anti-Christ and his army.
     
  3. Michael D. Edwards

    Michael D. Edwards
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    Thanks for the reply. Continuing on that same idea of the resurrection and rapture. I Cor 15 is a great defense for our hope of a resurrection of the body based on Christ's own resurrection.

    In that section he also uses the phrase "last" trump. For the pre-tribulationist, how is this most commonly defined so as to defend the view?

    Michael
     
  4. hrhema

    hrhema
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    Trumpets were used at the time of many celebration and feasts in Israel. They were used to call the people to a time of great joy.
    Paul being a Pharisee knew the significance of the Last trumpet blast during these feasts and celebrations so knowing this he likened the trumpet call which will sound to call all believers to the Rapture to the Last Trump of the feasts and celebration for this will be the greatest Celebration and feast the believers will experience. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
     
  5. Michael D. Edwards

    Michael D. Edwards
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    Do you see Rev. 19 as giving a possible marriage supper here on earth, rather than in heaven? It seems as though she's given raiment for the wedding just prior to the return of Christ to the earth?

    Michael
     
  6. hrhema

    hrhema
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    No, I believe the Marriage Supper happens after the Rapture. THis is for the raptured church. I believe though that there will be another celebration for those who came through the Great Tribulation and washed their robes white in the Blood of the Lam.
     
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Hrhema said:
    After they were seen in the streets of Jerusalem where did these resurrected saints go?... Brother Glen :confused:
     
  8. hrhema

    hrhema
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    Since the Bible does not explain what happened to these people we must assume this was those who died saved under the law and were in Sheol and were resurrected to go to Heaven.

    It is a shame that Matthew was the only writer who reported this and it is a shame that he made no attempt to explain what happened to them.
     
  9. Michael Edwards

    Michael Edwards
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    A couple quick thoughts

    1. Matthew only says the word "many" in relation to dead folks seen raised up and walking around. IT would seem that the raising of ALL OT saints would have raised a BIT MORE curiosity. The point made by the other good brother about where they would've gone after is intereting too!

    2. I would be careful to say it's a shame he did or didn't say anything, since it's inspired Scripture, I'd say it's just right what God wanted to say!

    In Him
    Michael
     
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    They couldn't go to heaven because there has not been a white throne judgement! Where did Lazarus go and did he have to die again?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  11. hrhema

    hrhema
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    I don't understand what this thing about they could not go to Heaven because there has not been a White Throne Judgement?

    So are we trying to say these individuals walked the earth then died again? Are we saying they still walk the Earth?

    Where did Enoch and Elijah go? How about Moses since he appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration?
    Then where are the raptured saints going to?.
    What about the souls under the altar? How did they get there since this is before the Great White Throne?
     
  12. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    hrhema,

    I think I agree entirely with your post dated April 18 at 5:15.

    Were you saying that the O.T. saints have already been resurrected from the dead? And if this is true are we to believe that they were translated bodily into Heaven? I noticed you referred to saints who arose at Christ's resurrection while on earth, which I have referred to in sermons.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  13. BPM

    BPM
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  14. bighouse222

    bighouse222
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    I was always taught that 1Thes. ch. 4 ,2Cor ch 15
    and Matt. ch 24 was about the Rapture.
    Since reading those chapters,this refers to the 2nd coming of CHRIST and not the RAPTURE.
    I do also see in Thess. that the (restrainer) one that letteth,is going to by yanked and that man of perdition revealed(HOLY SPIRIT).So thats the only support for the RAPTURE(The restrainer)??
    :eek:
     
  15. Michael D. Edwards

    Michael D. Edwards
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    Ok, well, I Thess 4 DOES talk about the "harpazo" the "snatching" up of the believer to meet Christ in the air. The word rapture comes from the latin translation. It is the ONLY place in scripture where it is mentioned by name.

    However, Matt 24 (if you hold to a pre-trib rapture) can NOT talk about the rapture. for it if does, then Jesus himself clearly identifies the time as "immediately after the tribulation in those days" So, most pretribulationists are forced to simply say that the text of Matt 24-25 are only for believing Jews at the time of the tribulation AFTER the rapture of the church. This is utterly ridiculous to me, however.

    The issue of I Cor 15 is the emphasis on our assurance that we will be resurrected to a new body. Paul lays the groundwork and hope for that future as guaranteed by Christ who rose first! There is no mention of the rapture nor of being caught up in the air.

    In brief, the trumpet, the clouds, the angels, the change, the gathering, all of these things seem to all point to the blessed hope of his appearing!

    Thanks
    Michael
     
  16. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    Amen to that Michael!
     
  17. postrib

    postrib
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    I believe Christ alone was the firstfruits of the resurrection into immortal bodies: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23). I don't believe Matthew 27:52-53 was a resurrection into immortal bodies, but that they were simply resuscitated like Lazarus was (John 12:1).

    I believe we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a U-turn coming of Jesus whereby he comes only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

    Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming of Christ.

    Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Almighty God is not going to punish the church with the anger that He will pour out on the wicked of this ungodly world. Why would He torture us, especially the saints who are striving to live for Him. What would be His motive? He has not appoint us to His future, all, pervading wrath, but rather to obtain salvation through His Shepherdly care. He will appear for us before the Great Tribulation.
     
  19. John Wells

    John Wells
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    Ray,

    I couldn't agree more!

    Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3:10 NIV)

    Revelation 5:9-10 (ESV) And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." But angels soon join the creatures and the elders in praising the Lamb in v.11-12.

    The Greek text used by the KJV indicates that the new song is sung by those who themselves have been redeemed: "Thou . . . has redeemed us to God . . . and hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth."

    The NIV, however, reads, "You purchased men for God. . . . You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." If the KJV is correct, the 24 elders must represent the church or saints in general. If their song is impersonal as in the NIV and they simply are singing that Christ is the Redeemeer of all men, it opens the possibility that the 24 elders could be angels, though it does not expressly affirm it.

    It would seem that since the elders are clothed in white, indicating purity; seated on thrones, suggesting responsibility and status; crowned with victors' wreaths seem to indicate that the elders had been judged and rewarded; and they themselves bear witness that they have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and, therefore, constitute a kingdom of priests. Such a description can only represent redeemed humanity, i.e. the OT and NT saints who are raptured and missing out on The Great Tribulation!

    God bless!
    John
     
  20. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    John wells said:
    I believe that the 24 elders are divided into 12 each... The heads of the twelve tribes of Israel... Natural Israel and the Apostles the heads the Spritual Israel 12 in all... In the Old Testament the typology and in the New Testament the actuality!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     

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