Resurrection in around 36 hours or literal 3 days?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ddavis, Oct 16, 2001.

  1. ddavis

    ddavis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2001
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would like to know what you guys believe about the Resurrection of Christ as far as a timeline is concerned. The tradition has been Friday to Sunday, which to me doesn’t make 3 days. I believe that He went to the cross on Wednesday morning and rose sometime after sunset on Saturday.
     
  2. Ransom

    Ransom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    ddavis said:

    I would like to know what you guys believe about the Resurrection of Christ as far as a timeline is concerned. The tradition has been Friday to Sunday, which to me doesn’t make 3 days. I believe that He went to the cross on Wednesday morning and rose sometime after sunset on Saturday.

    Half of Wednesday, all of Thursday, all of Friday, all of Saturday - you have just put yourself into the same boat as those who hold the traditional view, only in the opposite direction. If you want to hold to a literal 72-hour period between death and resurrection, the latest you can hold out for is an early-Saturday resurrection. Yet the Scriptures say he arose early in the morning on the first day, which is Sunday.

    There's no real reason to abandon the traditional view. Christ was dead for part of the first day, all the second, and part of the third. The Bible frequently uses numbers loosely and roundly. As do we. There's no need to impose unnecessary precision on the Biblical account.

    Furthermore, the traditional view makes the most sense of the biblical accounts of his burial and resurrection. Jesus' sufferings began some time around noon (Luke 23:44).

    Luke 23:44-46, as well as the parallel passages in the other synoptics, implies that Jesus was still alive at around the ninth hour of the day (approx. 3 pm). So he didn't die until mid- to late afternoon.

    Then, in Luke 23:54 it says that "t was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin." It must have been pretty late in the day, then, because it seems there was a bit of a push on to get Jesus buried before the sun went down, in accordance with Jewish law.

    Right after that it says that the women helped with the burial, and then immediately says that "on the Sabbath day they rested" (23:56). There doesn't appear to be an awful lot of space between the two events.

    Finally, the women return to find the tomb empty "on the first day of the week, at early dawn" (Luke 24:1). Some time before then, probably during the night but technically some time after the Sabbath on the first day, Jesus arose.

    So "three days" loosely means a bit of two days and one full one - somewhat less than 48 hours, let alone 72.
     
  3. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Time line:

    Crucified on the preparation day for the Feast of the Passover [just as the Passover lambs were being slain] (John 19.30) which fell on Wednesday in 31 AD.

    Buried at sundown on Wednesday.

    Sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday - one day. This day was the Sabbath (high sabbath, first day of Passover) and was the reason they had to have Him off the cross by sundown. (John 19.31)

    Sundown Thursday to sundown Friday - day two.

    Sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday - day three, and the weekly Sabbath.

    He arose at sundown Saturday, the first day of the week by Jewish reckoning. 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb, and arose the third day. Just as the bible says.

    Then the disciples came, before dawn and found the tomb already empty. (Matt 28:1)

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Or the alternative view that "three days and three nights" was simply a Hebrew idiom which meant "a couple of days".

    Up until the Middle Ages people who "died" were usually not buried immediately in case they had just gone into a coma or only appeared to have died. By Day 4 the body began decaying (hence Jesus visit to tomb of His buddy Lazarus on day 4 and Marta said "He stinketh")

    Folks would wait 2-3 days (40-60 hours) after a body had died, been washed and laid in the tomb. THEN, certain that the person was dead, they would wrap it, swaddle it, spice it with myrrh, etc. What the ladies planned to do with Jesus' body on Easter Sunday.

    So He could have died on Wednesday or Thursday or Friday from the account and language.
     
  5. ddavis

    ddavis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2001
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    0
    BY Ramson <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So "three days" loosely means a bit of two days and one full one - somewhat less than 48 hours, let alone 72. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    So then we are not to take Christ at his word when He told them if they destroyed the temple He would raise it up in three days.

    Thank You Thomas.
     
  6. Ransom

    Ransom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    ddavis said:

    So then we are not to take Christ at his word when He told them if they destroyed the temple He would raise it up in three days.

    Three days: part of the first, the whole second, and part of the third. Why take Jesus' words here so hyper-literally when you wouldn't under different circumstances? He wasn't really a door or bread, was he?
     
  7. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am going to give you 3 million dollars. Part of the first million, part of the second million, and part of the third million. Total: $3. Of course, you will owe the IRS about 1.5 million, but that is your problem. Maybe they will "spiritualize" the wording of the tax code just as you "spiritualize" the wording of the bible! :D
     
  8. Ransom

    Ransom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thomas Cassidy said:

    I am going to give you 3 million dollars. Part of the first million, part of the second million, and part of the third million. Total: $3.

    If your analogy is supposed to parallel what I said, then you should actually have said "part of the first million, all of the second million, and part of the third million" (unless you are "misreading" what I said again, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just weren't reading carefully. Again.)

    $1 millio plus is close enough for me, though; I'll let you know where to send the cheque.
     
  9. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    You better read it again. Part of the first million, all of the second million, and part of the third million is still only $1,000,002 and your tax burden would still be $1.5 million. You still lose! You will be just as financially bankrupt as those who can't see the plain words of scripture and just allow them to say what they say, but instead try to make them fit the corrupt RCC teaching of a Friday crucifixion, which the RCC teaches by tradition, not from the bible. If you want tradition to rule over scripture, fine, but count me out. The primary baptist distinctive is the Bible as our supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and practice. I am still a Baptist! [​IMG]
     
  10. toolman

    toolman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0
    My understanding is that we need to look at the time from a Jewish calendar. Sun down to sun down. Any time after sun down on Saturday would have been considered Sunday morning. Sun down Wednesday to sun down Thursday 1 day. Sun down Thursday to Sundown Friday 2 days. Sun down Friday to Sun down Saturday complete the 3 days. There is no way there could have been 3 days from Friday that would have been 1 day according to the Jewish calendar. [​IMG]
     
  11. ddavis

    ddavis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2001
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    0
    Were not all the days of feast considered to be sabbaths, then the "sabbath with commandment" would be Saturday?
     
  12. Ransom

    Ransom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thomas Cassidy said:

    You better read it again.

    I read it the first time. The problem is not with my reading comprehension, but:


    1. <LI>you seem to take my joke way to seriously;<LI>unlike you, apparently, I don't have to appeal to a sense of fair play. I'm not "ripped off" if Jesus didn't give me 72 dead hours.

    You will be just as financially bankrupt as those who can't see the plain words of scripture and just allow them to say what they say, but instead try to make them fit the corrupt RCC teaching of a Friday crucifixion, which the RCC teaches by tradition, not from the bible.

    Ah, my mistake, I see it is you with the reading comprehension problem. Perhaps you missed the part where I explained why I believed the traditional view, and based it on the plain wording of the Bible (without having to invent extra "sabbaths"). The Romanists follow the tradition of Sunday worship, too, but that doesn't mean that I opt for Tuesday night just to avoid their "tradition."
     
  13. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ransom:
    (without having to invent extra "sabbaths"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I see. So when the bible says the first day of Passover is a special sabbath (high day) you say that is not true and the bible is inventing extra sabbaths? So, according to you, John 19.31 is wrong, and so is Lev 23:6-7?

    Let's look at the chronology again:

    The Chronology of Christ's Crucifixion & Resurrection

    The key to understanding the chronology of the events leading up to and including Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection is that there were two Sabbaths in that week, with a day of preparation between them. This makes all of the Gospels accounts fall into place. The fulfillment of Christ's words become clear. A correct harmonization of all the facts will bear this out.

    THE EVENTS:

    TUESDAY Nisan 13
    Jesus and the twelve disciples come into Jerusalem from Bethany, to partake of the Passover meal.

    NIGHT ONE

    John and Peter were sent ahead of time to locate the place of the meal and to make preparations for it (Mark 14.12-16). Mark 14.17

    Passover is observed on the 14th of Nisan every year (Leviticus 23.5). Jesus and His disciples partook of the Passover in the early evening of the previous day. (Days are calculated from sunset-to-sunset, not midnight-to-midnight.)

    Gethsemane is at the foot of the Mount of Olives, not far from the brook Kidron, and takes its name from a cave there that contained an oil press — thus, Gat-Shmanim.

    Luke 23.44 shows that Jesus died around the ninth hour or approximately 3PM. He would have been buried before sunset because of the approaching Sabbath, for that Sabbath day was a high-day (John 19.31).

    John 19.31 mentions that the day following Jesus' crucifixion was a high day as opposed to the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. TWO Sabbaths – first an annual Holy Day and then the regular weekly Sabbath – are mentioned in the Gospel accounts. Compare Mark 16.1 with Luke 23.56

    The 15th of Nisan is the first Holy Day, high-day, or annual Sabbath of the 7-day festival of Unleavened Bread. It begins at sunset on the 14th.

    Mark 16:1 tells us, "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary (the mother of James and Salome), bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint Him." Luke's account also describes how the women "prepared the spices and ointments" and then they "rested on the Sabbath day according to the commandment." (Luke 23.56) Thus, according to these two accounts, they bought the spices and prepared them after the Sabbath and yet before the Sabbath. There had to be two Sabbaths involved here with a day of preparation between them.

    Jesus' promise was fulfilled exactly as he said it would. He said that, like the prophet Jonah, He would be entombed three days and three nights and that then He would be raised up from the dead the third day after His crucifixion and death (Matthew 12.39-40; 17.23; 20.19).

    Jesus' resurrection had already taken place by the time Mary Magdalene arrived at dawn Sunday morning. (John 20.1-2) In Matthew's account he states that "In the end of [or after] the Sabbath(s), as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" they came to see the sepulchre (Mt. 28.1) The original Greek word used here for Sabbath is actually plural and should be translated "Sabbaths."

    Jesus ate an early-evening Passover meal with His disciples. After the meal, the walks with His disciples towards the Mt. of Olives.

    Jesus was betrayed by Judas at the olive grove in Gethsemane, arrested and brought before the high priest, Caiaphas.

    Trial ends at daybreak.

    WEDNESDAY Nisan 14

    Preparation day for the annual, not weekly, Sabbath.

    In the morning, Jesus was brought before Pilate the governor.

    Jesus was crucified and dies around 3PM

    Jesus' body was placed in the tomb at twilight

    Annual Sabbath begins at sunset. Sunset at this time of year in Jerusalem, is about 6:30 to 7:00 PM.

    THURSDAY Nisan 15

    This was the first annual Sabbath or high-day - the first day of Unleavened Bread.

    Tomb is guarded and secured by sealing it with a stone.

    DAY ONE

    The annual Sabbath ends at sunset.

    NIGHT TWO

    FRIDAY Nisan 16

    With the annual Sabbath now over, the women bought and prepared spices for anointing Jesus' body.

    DAY TWO

    The weekly Sabbath begins at sunset Friday night. No work is to be done as commanded in the fourth commandment.

    NIGHT THREE

    SATURDAY Nisan 17

    The weekly Sabbath.

    The women rested on the weekly Sabbath.

    Jesus rose around sunset, exactly three days and three nights (72 hours) after burial, to fulfill the sign of Jonah and authenticate Jesus' messiahship.

    DAY THREE

    The weekly Sabbath ends at sunset Saturday night.

    SUNDAY Nisan 18

    The women brought the prepared spices early in the morning while it was still dark. When they arrived they found that Jesus had already arisen.

    Believing is bible is a lot easier than believing the RCC! [​IMG]
     
  14. ddavis

    ddavis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2001
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    0
    AMEN!
     
  15. toolman

    toolman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ditto!!! :D
     
  16. ShaneS

    ShaneS
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I want to respond to the post by Mr Thomas Cassidy by say I enjoyed reading it. This topic has come up before in a discussion with a good friend who is a member of the World Wide Church of God. Before then I had not thought about the time line of the resurrection. To me the only thing that mattered was that Christ is risen. When looking at the verses of scripture it is hard to determine the time line of the resurrection but your explination of the events make sense and are the clarest I have heard so far. The only question I have is on the dates you presented. It is my understanding that the Hebrew calender starts off each month with the first day of the week being Sunday the 1st. If this is true then in your post Tuesday could not have been the 13 it would have been the 10th day of the month. Thus causing a problem with the dates. I had printed your post out in order to show my friend because he believes that Christ arose on Saturday not Sunday and that we are worshipping in vain by going to church on Sunday. He is believes we should be keeping the Sabbath day not Sunday. In order for me to talk to him I need to make sure about the dates if they are right. My understanding is limited on this subject and your help would be appericated. [​IMG]
     
  17. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Shane, you bring up an interesting point. Present knowledge of the Jewish calendar in use before the period of the Babylonian Exile is both limited and uncertain. The Bible refers to calendar matters only incidentally, and the dating of components of Mosaic Law remains doubtful. The earliest datable source for the Hebrew calendar is the Gezer Calendar, written probably in the age of Solomon, in the late 10th century BC. The inscription indicates the length of main agricultural tasks within the cycle of 12 lunations. The calendar term here is yereah, which in Hebrew denotes both "moon" and "month." The second Hebrew term for month, hodesh, properly means the "newness" of the lunar crescent. Thus, the Hebrew months were lunar. They are not named in pre-exilic sources except in the biblical report of the building of Solomon's Temple in I Kings, where the names of three months, two of them also attested in the Phoenician calendar, are given; the months are usually numbered rather than named. The "beginning of the months" was the month of the Passover. In some passages, the Passover month is that of hodesh ha-aviv, the lunation that coincides with the barley being in the ear. Thus, the Hebrew calendar is tied in with the course of the Sun, which determines ripening of the grain. It is not known how the lunar year of 354 days was adjusted to the solar year of 365 days. The Bible never mentions intercalation. The year shana, properly "change" (of seasons), was the agricultural and, thus, the religious year. There is no reference to the New Year's day in the Bible.

    After the conquest of Jerusalem (587 BC), the Babylonians introduced their cyclic calendar and the reckoning of their regnal (dating from the ascention of a king) years from Nisanu 1, about the spring equinox. The Jews now had a finite calendar year with a New Year's day, and they adopted the Babylonian month names, which they continue to use. From 587 BC until AD 70, the Jewish civil year was Babylonian, except for the period of Alexander the Great and the Ptolemies (332-200 BC), when the Macedonian calendar was used. The situation after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in AD 70 remains unclear. It is not known whether the Romans introduced their Julian calendar or the calendar that the Jews of Palestine used after AD 70 for their business transactions. There is no calendar reference in the New Testament; the contemporary Aramaic documents from Judaea are rare and prove only that the Jews dated events according to the years of the Roman emperors. The abundant data in the Talmudic sources concern only the religious calendar.

    In the religious calendar, the commencement of the month was determined by the observation of the crescent New Moon, and the date of the Passover was tied in with the ripening of barley. The actual witnessing of the New Moon and observing of the stand of crops in Judaea were required for the functioning of the religious calendar. The Jews of the Diaspora, or Dispersion, who generally used the civil calendar of their respective countries, were informed by messengers from Palestine about the coming festivals. This practice is already attested for 143 BC. After the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, rabbinic leaders took over from the priests the fixing of the religious calendar. Visual observation of the New Moon was supplemented and toward AD 200, in fact, supplanted by secret astronomical calculation. But the people of the Diaspora were often reluctant to wait for the arbitrary decision of the calendar makers in the Holy Land. Thus, in Syrian Antioch in AD 328-342, the Passover was always celebrated in (Julian) March, the month of the spring equinox, without regard to the Palestinian rules and rulings. To preserve the unity of Israel, the patriarch Hillel II, in 358/359, published the "secret" of calendar making, which essentially consisted of the use of the Babylonian 19-year cycle with some modifications required by the Jewish ritual.

    Which brings us to the relationship between the Jewish calendar and our present calendar.

    In the mid-1st century BC Julius Caesar invited Sosigenes, an Alexandrian astronomer, to advise him about the reform of the calendar, and Sosigenes decided that the only practical step was to abandon the lunar calendar altogether. Months must be arranged on a seasonal basis, and a tropical (solar) year used, as in the Egyptian calendar, but with its length taken as 365 1/4 days.

    To remove the immense discrepancy between calendar date and equinox, it was decided that the year known in modern times as 46 BC should have two intercalations. The first was the customary intercalation of the Roman republican calendar due that year, the insertion of 23 days following February 23. The second intercalation, to bring the calendar in step with the equinoxes, was achieved by inserting two additional months between the end of November and the beginning of December. This insertion amounted to an addition of 67 days, making a year of no less than 445 days and causing the beginning of March, 45 BC in the Roman republican calendar, to fall on what is still called January 1 of the Julian calendar.

    Apparently, the Pontifices misinterpreted the edict and inserted an extra day for "leap year" too frequently. The error arose because of the Roman practice of inclusive numbering, so that an intercalation once every fourth year meant to them intercalating every three years, because a bissextile (leap) year was counted as the first year of the subsequent four-year period. This error continued undetected for 36 years, during which period 12 days instead of nine were added. The emperor Augustus then made a correction by omitting intercalary days between 8 BC and AD 8. As a consequence, it was not until several decades after its inception that the Julian calendar came into proper operation, a fact that is important in chronology but is all too frequently forgotten.

    It seems that the months of the Julian calendar were taken over from the Roman republican calendar but were slightly modified to provide a more even pattern of numbering. The republican calendar months of March, May, and Quintilis (July), which had each possessed 31 days, were retained unaltered. Although there is some doubt about the specific details, changes may have occurred in the following way. Except for October, all the months that had previously had only 29 days had either one or two days added. January, September, and November received two days, bringing their totals to 31, while April, June, Sextilis (August), and December received one day each, bringing their totals to 30. October was reduced by one day to a total of 30 days and February increased to 29 days, or 30 in a bissextile year. With the exception of February, the scheme resulted in months having 30 or 31 days alternately throughout the year. And in order to help farmers, Caesar issued an almanac showing on which dates of his new calendar various seasonal astronomical phenomena would occur.

    These arrangements for the months can only have remained in force for a short time, because in 8 BC changes were made by Augustus. In 44 BC, the second year of the Julian calendar, the Senate proposed that the name of the month Quintilis be changed to Julius (July), in honour of Julius Caesar, and in 8 BC the name of Sextilis was similarly changed to Augustus (August). Perhaps because Augustus felt that his month must have at least as many days as Julius Caesar's, February was reduced to 28 days and August increased to 31. But because this made three 31-day months (July, August, and September) appear in succession, Augustus is supposed to have reduced September to 30 days, added a day to October to make it 31 days, reduced November by one day to 30 days, and increased December from 30 to 31 days, giving the months the lengths they have today.

    Which brings us to the Gregorian calendar.

    The need for additional modifications became apparent some time soon after the 6th century as a result of developments in calendar computation in the previous 200 years. In AD 463, Victorius (or Victorinus) of Aquitaine, who had been appointed by Pope Hilarius (love that name! :D) to undertake calendar revision, devised the Great Paschal (i.e., Passover) period, sometimes later referred to as the Victorian period. It was a combination of the solar cycle of 28 years and the Metonic 19-year cycle, bringing the Full Moon back to the same day of the month, and amounted to 28 X 19, or 532 years. In the 6th century, this period was used by Dionysius Exiguus (Denis the Little) in computing the date of Easter, because it gave the day of the week for any day in any year, and so it also became known as the Dionysian period. Dionysius took the year now called AD 532 as the first year of a new Great Paschal period and the year now designated 1 BC as the beginning of the previous cycle. In the 6th century it was the general belief that this was the year of Christ's birth, and because of this Dionysius introduced the concept of numbering years consecutively through the Christian Era. The method was adopted by some scholars but seems only to have become widely used after its popularization by the Venerable Bede of Jarrow (673-735), whose reputation for scholarship was very high in Western Christendom in the 8th century. This system of BC/AD numbering threw into relief the different practices, or styles, of reckoning the beginning of the year then in use. When the Gregorian calendar firmly established January 1 as the beginning of its year, it was widely referred to as the New Style calendar, with the Julian the Old Style calendar. In Britain, under the Julian calendar, the year had first begun on December 25 and then, from the 14th century onward, on March 25.

    Our calendar was again reformed in the mid 18th century, largely a result of the French revolution, to standardize the first day of the new year as January 1 in stead of March 1st. This happened in the US in 1777. (This also explains why the name of the 9th month comes from the Latin word for "seven" - the 10th month comes from the Latin word for "eight" - the 11th month comes from the Latin word for "nine" and the 12th month comes from the Latin word for "ten!").

    So, the bottom line is, we really don't know what day of the week it is today in the Jewish calendar. So we go with what we have and don't worry about it, remembering Colossians 2:16. [​IMG]

    [much of the above information comes from my syllabus on ancient dating and was gathered from several sources including the OED and EB]
     
  18. ShaneS

    ShaneS
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I appericate all the information on the calendar that you gave this will help in future discussions. I would like to give you a little background on myself if I could. I go to a Baptist church near my home and believe the same way you do concerning the bible and our lord and saviour Jesus Christ. I visited your church website earlier today to read your statement of faith. The situation that I am in with my friend is one of differance. He is deeply involved with the World Wide Church of God this is Garner Ted Armstrongs organization. He does not beleive many of the things that I do. Such as worshipping on Sunday, Hell as a place of torment, the rapture, and many other things. I would be intrested to know if you know anything about British-Isrealism my friend believes in this theory and that he is an Isrealite. The Hebrew calendar came up because he has a computer program that allows him to switch between our calendar and the Hebrew calendar. In order for me to show him what you posted on the resurrection I would need the information on the Hebrew calendar because he would have said you were wrong about the days. Thank you for the information I can tell that you are well studied as we all should be. I am new at posting so if it is hard to read please forgive me. [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...