Resurrection Saints and Wicked

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 6, 2007.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    The Saints

    Their Past:

    In Revelation 20:4c
    “They lived / came to life”-‘edzehsan’

    parallel with their Past

    in John 5:24-25c
    “Now” ... “they shall live”- ‘dzehsohsin’

    (“Blessed and holy he that hath Part In The First Resurrection – on such the second death hath no power ...” Rv20:6a)

    Their Future:

    In John 5:28-29a =
    “The hour is coming in which all the dead that are in the graves shall hear His Voice, and shall come forth: They that have done good, unto the resurrection of Life

    parallel with their Future

    in Revelation 20:7-15
    “And when the thousand years were expired ... I saw a white throne and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ... I saw the dead stand before God; and the books were opened. And another Book was opened, The Book of Life ... the sea gave, and hell delivered up the dead ... and the dead were judged ... according to their works” ...

    The Wicked

    “The rest of the dead”, ‘on such as the second death hath power’, Rv20:7-10, 14-15 –

    Their Past:

    In Revelation 20:5a
    “They lived not”-‘ouk edzehsan’

    parallel with their Past

    in John 5:24-25
    They had no Part In The First Resurrection. Omission; they had no part in Jn5:24-25. No parallel found!

    Their Future:

    In John 5:28-29b
    “The hour is coming in which all the dead that are in the graves shall hear His Voice, and shall come forth ... they that hath done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

    parallel with their Future

    in Revelation 20:7-15,
    “And when the thousand years were expired ... I saw a white throne and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ... I saw the dead stand before God; and the books were opened. And another Book was opened, The Book of Life ... the sea gave, and hell delivered up the dead ... and the dead were judged ... according to their works ... And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire ... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.”

    After this I saw a new heaven and a new earth.”
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Saints Rev 20:1-5 "THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION over these the SECOND death has NO POWER".

    Christ AFFIRMS this ONE singular event for the saints -

    John 14

    1 ""Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
    2 ""In My
    Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 ""
    If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again AND receive you to Myself, that where I am
    , there you may be also.[/b]


    Peter says that ALL the saints focus ENTIRELY on that ONE event

    1Peter 1:11 "and the glories to follow"
    1Peter 1:13. Peter tells us to "
    fix your hope completely on the glory that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Christ".

    Paul says
    2Thess 1 "the Lord
    Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God"

    Paul descrives the FIRST resurrection in 1Thess 4


    1Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren,
    about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that
    Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that
    we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede [b]those[/b] who have [b]fallen asleep.[/b]
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.[/b]
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    And of course AFTER that FIRST resurrection - there is a literal 1000 years according to Rev 20.
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    BR
    "Paul descrives the FIRST resurrection in 1Thess 4"

    GE
    Paul does not, describe 'The First Resurrection', in 1 Thess 4. Fact. There is, no, 'First Resurrection' described in 1Thess 4. Fact.

    John, in Rv20:5b, 'describes' "This The First Resurrection". Fact. John, in Rv20:5b, describes "This The First Resurrection", "Thousand Years This The First Resurrection". Fact.

    Same John, in Jn5:24-25, 'describes' this same, 'resurrection' (Fact) as "the dead hear(ing) the Voice of the Son of God (Fact): And they that hear, shall live -'dzehsousin'". Fact. The very same 'comming to Life' (Fact)the same John employs in Rv20:4. Fact.
    No 'first resurrection' anywhere in Scripture. FACT!
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    BR
    "And of course AFTER that FIRST resurrection - there is a literal 1000 years according to Rev 20."

    GE
    BR says, AFTER FIRST resurrection - literal 1000 years. John says, "Thousand Years This First Resurrection" - making the two, the same. And if, there were a chronolgical sequence, John puts, quote, "Thousand Years First, Resurrection" -- next! If you wanted literalness, you got it!
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Revelation 20:4-6 (TNIV = Today's New International Version):

    I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority
    to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because
    of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.
    They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received
    his mark on their foreheads or their hands.
    They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.
    The second death has no power over them,
    but they will be priests of God and of Christ and
    will reign with him for a thousand years.

    In this modern translation note in verse five the 'first resurrection'
    is placed outside the parents ')' & '(' -- the 'first resurrection'
    is talking about the rapture/resurrection of the two groups of
    people in verse 4:

    1. the mostly gentile saints resurrected/raptured at
    the beginning of the tribulation - I saw thrones on which
    were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

    2. the Jewish/Israeli saints of the Tribulation resurrected/raptured
    at the end of the tribulation - I saw the souls of those who
    had been beheaded because of their testimony about
    Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not
    worshiped the beast or his image and had not received
    his mark on their foreheads or their hands.

    This phrase in verse 4 shows the order of events:

    They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    The 'first resurrection' comes BEFORE reigning with Christ for
    a thousand years.
     
    #5 Ed Edwards, Oct 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2007
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Preach it.

    They are the "HOLY and BLESSED"

    They are those over whom "the SECOND death has no power".

    (BTW - they are those who benefit from the John 14 promise of Christ which is THE focus of the church according to Peter in 1Peter 1)

    most definitely!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Wrong.

    We see the saints "COME TO LIFE" BEFORE the 1000 years and John CALLS that coming to life -- "the FIRST resurrection"

    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to lifeand reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


    5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]
    6
    Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

    7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,

    Your "wild spin" on vs 5 makes it appear that John is calling the SECOND "coming to life" the "FIRST resurrection" -- what a huge clue this must be for you that your view is clearly wrong.

    (No need to thank me in pointing that out for you. It is also just part of the service I am doing here for others)
     
    #7 BobRyan, Oct 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2007
  8. tjfkbrawny

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    In verse 5, it is the first resurrection, and if that is right before the millenium, is that after the tribulation?
     
  9. BobRyan

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    yes -- it is AFTER Rev 16 seven last plagues AND it is AT the end of the Rev 19 event - the 2nd coming.

    As Matt 24 shows -- post-trib, pre-mill.

    (but not HIGH BOUNCE)
     
  10. tjfkbrawny

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    So then would that imply a post-tribulation rapture?
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother tjfkbrawny -- Preach it!
    Yes, the First Resurrection ends at the end of the
    Tribulation period. The First Resurrection (the resurrection
    of the Just) started at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    and ends at the post-tribulation rapture/resurrection.

    The First Resurrection is like a knife: one cut (the Tribulation
    period) caused by two sides : the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection and the post-tribulation
    rapture/resurrection.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Counting resurrections in the Bible:

    1. one resurrection - everybody gets resurrected,
    resurrection is sure


    Dan 12:1-2 (KJV1611 Edition):

    And at that time shall Michael stand vp, the great Prince
    which standeth for the children of thy people, and there
    shalbe a time of trouble, such as neuer was since there
    was a nation, euen to that same time: and at that time
    thy people shalbe deliuered, euery one that shalbe
    found written in the booke.
    2 And many of them that sleepe in the dust
    of the earth shall awake, some to euerlasting life,
    and some to shame and euerlasting contempt.


    2. two resurrections types - resurrection of
    the Just & resurrection of the unjust

    (recall 'just' is a Jesus thing - a person is just
    ONLY through Messiah Jesus)

    Rev 20:5-6 (KJV1611 Edition):
    (Group #2):
    But the rest of the dead liued not againe vntill
    the thousand yeeres were finished
    .
    This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed & holy is he that hath
    part in ye first resurrection:
    (Group #1)
    on such the second death hath no power,
    but they shall be Priests of God,
    and of Christ, and shall reigne with
    him a thousand yeeres.


    The just in Christ are the the 'Priest of God, and
    of Christ'. The 'rest of the dead' are the unjust.

    3. three resurrections being discussed
    The third resurrection is the resurrection of
    the unjust as described in Revelation 20:5

    The first & second resurrections are
    of the two groups in Revelation 20:4

    Rev 20:4 (KJV1611 Edition)
    (GROUP #1)
    And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
    and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
    &

    (GROUP #2)
    I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
    for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God,
    and which had not worshipped the beast,
    neither his image, neither had receiued
    his marke vpon their foreheads,
    or in their hands;
    (both groups)
    and they liued and
    reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.


    Group #1 are the mostly gentile saved
    elect saints from the Church Age.
    Group #2 is the mostly Jewish/Israeli elect saints

    see the next post for my evangelical message about
    five resurrections :wavey:
     
    #12 Ed Edwards, Oct 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2007
  13. Ed Edwards

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    \o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/


    Five Resurrections:

    (last revised 6 Oct 2007,
    first written in Sept 1991 -
    'Contract on America' was a
    political item in the election of 1991)
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    --Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    --Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    --Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
    Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

    How to get on God's list
    [how resurrection #1 can get you
    from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
    to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV1769 Edition): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.



    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the end of time
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understanding of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
    this is an example of how to let Scripture
    interpret scripture). Note that the order:
    First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
    not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
    is how things are done in the real world.
    Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust /#5/ ).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    clearly notes that the just are raised one day
    (a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

    Note that resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
    by a rapture of living saints.

    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    I'm sorry you cannot distinguish between
    a type of event (here resurrection of the just /in Christ/ )
    and specific examples of such an event
    (here the pretribulation resurrection and the
    post-tribualtion resurrection).

    Here is an example:
    There is a type event called the Birthday (really
    a Birthday Anniversery, but it is usually callled 'birthday').
    I have had 64 such events happen to me - but it is
    only one kind of event. There is another type even
    called a 'knighting' which I have never experiences
    (and am not likely to).
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Ed Edwards,
    "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection."

    This exactly, word for word, literally, is what I am saying.
    You contradict its very thrust through your remark at the end of your post.
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Your last remark : "The 'first resurrection' comes BEFORE reigning with Christ for
    a thousand years."
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Haai okes, you've got your 'pre-trib' thread. Don't hike this one for it; you're confusing everybody!
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    BR
    "We see the saints "COME TO LIFE" BEFORE the 1000 years and John CALLS that coming to life -- "the FIRST resurrection""

    GE
    "We", "see"? I don't "see"? Read what I quoted from John, letter for letter, word for word, sentence for sentence, then "see".
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    GE
    Correction, 'Anywhere ELSE ....' Sorry!
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    BR and EE

    "The 'first resurrection' comes BEFORE reigning with Christ for
    a thousand years.
    most definitely!"

    GE

    Most definitely not!
    They came to life AND AND AND reigned with Christ Thousand Years (The rest of the dead did not come to life until were expired the Thousand Years This The First Resurrection - word order in TR and in NA.
     

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