Rev 12

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by amixedupmom, Jun 24, 2004.

  1. amixedupmom

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    I'm wondering if this woman who went to the desert for 1260 days Mary? If not who is she?

    Two- What happened to her after those days?

    Three- Is she the one talked about later as Bablyon?

    [​IMG] i'm just so full of questions today aren't I?
     
  2. psr.2

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    The woman is Israel. The time is in the middle of the tribulation. The anti-Christ has turned on Israel and God has told her to flee to the wilderness.
    Ezekiel 20
    34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
    35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
    36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

    God makes reference to the first Exodus of the Israelites and how he talked with them. He tells them here in prophecy that he will do it again.

    Another reference is;
    Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    The 1260 days are 3 1/2 years
     
  3. Grasshopper

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    She is indeed Israel. The Roman siege on Jerusalem in AD70 lasted 3 1/2 years. Luke foretold of this event and told the followers of Jesus what do do:

    Luke 21:20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
    21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.

    This matches Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    Josephus tells us that this is exactly what the Christians did, they fled out of Jerusalem to Pella.

    Matt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    Ever wonder why it would matter if they fled to the mountains? If the second coming is a world-wide catostrophic event, why would it matter? This verse seems to be describing a local event doesn't it?
     
  4. Daniel David

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    It would matter because that would be the logical, closest place of refuge. Oh, and it is a worldwide event. Something that has never happened.
     
  5. Paul of Eugene

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    The woman being in the wilderness corresponds to Israel's dispersion among the nations. Now that Israel has become a nation again, the woman is no longer hidden in the wilderness.
     
  6. amixedupmom

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  7. Bro Tony

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    It seems we are all in agreement so far that this woman refers to Israel, not Mary(who would have thought it?). The description of her goes all the way back to Joseph's dream in Genesis.

    The only point of contention seems to be whether this occurrance described in Rev 12 is future or historic. I believe future, while I know some of my brothers hold it to have occurred in 70AD.

    Bro Tony
     
  8. psr.2

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    This is prophecy. Read what preceeds in chapter 11. The two witnesses preaching in the trib, killed, in the street for 3 days then caught up to heaven.

    All leading up to chapt 12
     
  9. Bro Tony

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    I whole-heartedly agree.

    There is the school of thought that when John wrote it is was prophecy, because they hold that John wrote Revelation prior to 70AD. So that school would consider it prophecy, but prophecy that was fulfilled in 70 AD. To us they would teach all these things are historic. I hold that Revelation was written in 90-93 AD. No preterist can hold this view, because the later dating of Revelation destroys preterism. It is interesting to see the different approaches to eschatology.

    Bro Tony
     
  10. amixedupmom

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    I wasn't sure if they were talking one person or a nation. To be honest i'm new at this :). And, constantly learning.
     
  11. Bro Tony

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    Lea,

    There is much differences of opinion when it comes to eschatology. I hope you knew when I wrote "who would have thought it?" I was talking about that all would be in agreement on any one thing [​IMG]

    I am glad you are here and for your great spirit as you add to the disscussion.

    Bro Tony
     
  12. amixedupmom

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    Thanks Tony if I might get your opinion on one thing that is kind of in this discussion.

    The lady called "Babylon" Is that a place, person, or group of people.

    Reading it as I did as I would a book I took it literally. To be honest I thought that the Lady giving birth, was Maybe the rebirth of Christ. Although I know he was the front of the 144,000. I'm not understanding where they are getting these million numbers? I do not recall reading that there were any exact numbers on who was saved. I don't think there are because it's not to that time yet. I'm confused on this greatly.
     
  13. Bro Tony

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    Lea,

    You are right there are no exact numbers of those who will be saved during this time.

    Babylon can and has been interpreted in the Scripture in everyway you spoke of, ie place, person, group of people. I personally believe in the Book of Revelation it is talking about a system; Religious Babylon , Political Babylon, and Economic Babylon (Revelation 17 & 18).

    I believe you find this information in theses two chapters. The full impact of this has been speculated on for a couple of thousand years.

    Blessings as you search His wonderful Word, I still am and intend to until I see Him face to face.

    Bro Tony
     
  14. amixedupmom

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    Amen I'll do some research and see what I can find out . I tend to look till I feel comfortable with a decision. I might start a thread on this very topic [​IMG]
     
  15. Grasshopper

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    Revelation is full of symbolism and O.T. imagery. Most of the symbols can be traced back to the the O.T. An example would be the "Harlot". Find out who she was in the OT and trace her forward. Good luck, Revelation is a very difficult book and should be interpreted only after grounding yourself in the OT and Prophets.

    From the Preterist view she is Old Covenant Jerusalem:


    "The Great City"


    Babylon

    Rev 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
    19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    Jerusalem

    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city , which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    "Whore and Adultery"

    Babylon

    Rev 17: 5 and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    Jerusalem

    Ez 6: 9 And those of you that escape shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captive, how that I have been broken with their lewd heart, which hath departed from me, and with they eyes, which play the harlot after their idols: and they shall loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

    Ez 16:15 But thou didst trust in thy beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy whoredoms on every one that passed by; his it was.
    16 And thou didst take of thy garments, and madest for thee high places decked with divers colors, and playedst the harlot upon them: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

    Jer. 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, will he return unto her again? will not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith Jehovah.
    2 Lift up thine eyes unto the bare heights, and see; where hast thou not been lain with? By the ways hast thou sat for them, as an Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
    3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; yet thou hast a harlot's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
    4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My Father, thou art the guide of my youth?
    5 Will he retain his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and hast done evil things, and hast had thy way.
    6 Moreover Jehovah said unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
    7 And I said after she had done all these things, She will return unto me; but she returned not: and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
    8 And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery , I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot.

    "Blood of the Saints"

    Babylon

    Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder.

    Rev18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

    Jerusalem

    Matt 23: 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets.
    32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
    34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


    I Thess2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
    15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
    16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

    "Saints warned to Escape"

    Babylon

    Rev 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
    5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived

    Jerusalem

    Lk 21:20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
    21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out ; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    "Adorned like a Priest"

    Babylon

    Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearls , having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, even the unclean things of her fornication,

    Rev 18:16 saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she that was arrayed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearl!

    Jerusalem

    Ex 28: 5 And they shall take the gold, and the blue, and the purple, and the scarlet, and the fine linen.
    6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and purple, scarlet, and fine twined linen, the work of the skilful workman7 It shall have two shoulder-pieces joined to the two ends thereof, that it may be joined together.8 And the skilfully woven band, which is upon it, wherewith to gird it on, shall be like the work thereof and of the same piece; of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen..9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:10 six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the six that remain on the other stone, according to their birth.11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones, according to the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be inclosed in settings of gold.

    "Destroyed by Hailstones"

    Babylon

    Rev 16:
    21 And great hail, every stone about the weight of a talent, cometh down out of heaven upon men: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof is exceeding great.

    Jerusalem

    Josephus records in his book, "War of the Jews" Book 5 chapter 6:3 , that stones weighing 1 talent were catapulted into Jerusalem during the siege by the Roman armies.

    Punishment for a harlot were burning and stoning

    Old Covenant instructions:

    Lev21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

    Deut 22:20 But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel;
    21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones , because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.


    Babylon

    Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire.

    Rev 18:21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.

    Notice the celebration of the fall of Babylon:


    Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.

    No more persecution of the early church by the Jews. They had been judged just as Jesus said they would be.

    Matt 23: 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you , All these things shall come upon this generation .
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    From the Preterist view she is Old Covenant Jerusalem:

    </font>[/QUOTE]IMO the Preterist viewpoint is
    to make the book of Revelation into a history
    book. The most likely date for the book
    of Revelation is 96AD. The first destruction
    of Jerusalem was in 70AD lead by General
    Titus (later Emperor Titus) of Rome.
    Thus the Preterists view is
    that much of Revelation had already
    happened before the Book was written.
    This viewpoint has a big problem with
    the Millinnial Reign of our Blessed Lord
    and Savior, Messiah Yeshua. Jesus never
    literaly reigned. But Voila! lean to
    the mystics and just make it a spiritual
    experience -- it happened, but on a plane
    that you can't see.

    However, by the time Revelation barely
    got addopted into the cannon, it was construed
    as being a prophetic book.

    BTW, Revelation is not as hard a book
    to understand as more spiritual books
    like say Ephesians.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Pluvivs

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    I would disagree with you'r point, Ed, in that it is "not as hard" as other books of the Bible. I wholly agree that the deep spiritual truths in Ephesians are difficult indeed to fully understand, moreso than some in Revelation, but the symbolism is clearer and more defined. For example, there are easily three interpretations of the Harlot of Revelation--the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman Empire, and Jerusalem--each with scriptural backing, but with conflicting implications (as this short thread already shows). However, the commands in Ephesians are not so (Be ye therefore followers of God...and walk in love; Children, obey your parents; Stand...having your loins girt about with truth...and the sword of the Spirit, etc).

    Lea, I would not discourage you at all from reading Revelation, but if you are new at Bible study, pursue righteousness and peace throughout the Bible first, especially seeking a solid understanding of Christ's sacrifice, his ordinances in the church, good works and care of the sick, poor, and elderly, gifts of the Spirit, abstinence from the world, etc.

    -Pluvivs
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    True. Just as the OT is history.


    The rest of your comments are moot. Yhis is just a few of those who hold to an early date.

    Clement of Alexandria(150-215)
    "For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, end with Nero." (Miscellanies 7:17.)

    Arethas
    On Revelation 7:4) "When the Evangelist received these oracles, the destruction in which the Jews were involved was not yet inflicted by the Romans."

    F.W. Farrar (1886)
    "there can be no reasonable doubt respecting the (early) date of the Apocalypse." (The Early Days of Christianity; NY, NY: A.L. Burt, 1884; p. 387)
    "We cannot accept a dubious expression of the Bishop of Lyons as adequate to set aside an overwhelming weight of evidence, alike external and internal, in proof of the fact that the Apocalypse was written, at the latest, soon after the death of Nero." (The Early Days of Christianity; NY, NY: A.L. Burt, 1884; p. 408)

    Epiphanies (A. D. 315-403)
    States Revelation was written under "Claudius [Nero] Caesar." (Epiphanies, Heresies 51:12,)
    The Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170)
    "the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name. "
    "John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all. " (ANF 5:603).

    Philip Schaff(1877)
    "On two points I have changed my opinion -- the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." (Vol. I, Preface to the Revised Edition, 1882 The History of the Christian Church, volume 1 &lt;../../Books/1882_schaff_history_38.html&gt;)

    "Tertullian’s legend of the Roman oil-martyrdom of John seems to point to Nero rather than to any other emperor, and was so understood by Jerome (Adv. Jovin. 1.26) (History 1:428.)

    H.A. Whittaker
    "In A.D. 66, the well supported early date for the writing of Revelation, Jerusalem also was a city which 'had a kingdom over the kings of the Land.' Indeed, not only was Jerusalem a city with special authority over the various tetrarchies adjoining Judaea, but also the temple had an amazing degree of authority over Jewish communities in all parts of the Roman empire." (Revelation, page 214).

    Robert Young (1885)
    "It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitious Nero, as state in the title of the Syriac version of the book ; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus in A.D.175, who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou -- ie., Domitious (Nero). Sulpicius, Orosius, etc., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domition, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." (Commentary on Revelation - Young's Analytical Concordance)


    Here is part of an article by Terry Siverd:

    "In modern writing it is usually held, by conservatives and radicals alike, that the Fourth Gospel must be late" (Leon Morris, Studies in the Fourth Gospel, p.283). Robinson likewise admits, "the assumption that John was written probably in the last decade of the first century is today almost universally accepted" (Redating the New Testament, p. 261). However, as Robinson illustrates by referring to Kummel's late-date assumption, "it is typical also that he does not advance a single positive reason why this late date...is the right one." C.C. Torrey dares to differ with the majority and writes, "as to the dating of the Gospel material: it is all distinctively early...there is not one word in any of the four books that might not have been written twenty years after the death of Jesus...No argument from silence could possibly be stronger than that which tends to show that all four Gospels were written before the year 70...certainly no one of the evangelists, when he wrote, could look back on the scenes which Josephus describes" (The Four Gospels, pp. 255-257).
    Essentially what we find today is a plethora of "research" that simply regurgitates the mistaken conclusions of previous scholarship. In actuality, the number of commentators and scholars who have truly re-searched (i.e., examined afresh) the evidences on the date of origin are few and far between. Most are echoes of the past.
    However, as Morris states, "in recent years some scholars have suggested that the date may perhaps be considerably earlier" (p. 286). Many of the arguments for a late date (A.D.90 and later) are open to debate and admittedly vulnerable. Indeed, they require assumption. Thankfully the last few decades have brought more and more in-depth study on this question. Cf. F. Lamar Cribbs, "A Reassessment of the Date of Origin and the Destination of the Gospel of John", Journal of Biblical Literature 89 (March 1970) and Erwin R. Goodenough's, "John, A Primitive Gospel", Journal of Biblical Literature 64 (1945). Traditionally then we see the "fourth" gospel being assigned a late date (c.A.D.90-110). Most of the introductions, commentaries and class notes used in colleges, universities and seminaries reflect this assumption. This late-date view eventually finds its way into our Sunday School curriculum, study Bibles and pulpits until we become so saturated with this assumed late date that it is no longer even questioned. It is both rare and refreshing to read those who are willing to critique and challenge the late-date theories (e.g., Franklin Camp, The Work Of The Holy Spirit In Redemption, pgs. 58 & 181).
    The arguments for a late date lean heavily upon the supposed external evidence of Irenaeus. Irenaeus does state that, "the apostle John lived to a great age" (unto the reign of Trajan, c.98-117 A.D.)and also that "he was the last evangelist to write" (Adv. Haer.2.22.5; 33.4; 3.1.1.). But as Robinson points out, "...that he wrote as a very old man is an inference which only appears late and accompanied by other statements which show that it is secondary and unreliable" (Redating, p.257). A recent work that has as good a discussion of the Irenaeus issue as any we've seen is Kenneth Gentry's, Before Jerusalem Fell. He concludes a chapter on Irenaeus by noting, "a bold 'thus saith Irenaeus' cannot be conclusive on the matter" (p.67).

    More info here from a paper written by a student at DTS no less! http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/st-essay/ragan/chap3.htm
     

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