Rev. 22:17

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Southern, Oct 29, 2004.

  1. Southern

    Southern
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    Many Arminians have quoted the following verse as if it go’s against what is commonly called "Calvinism". I would like to comment on it and see how Arminians think this contradicts a Calvinistic Soteriology:

    Rev. 22: 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    1.)This verse teaches that all those who "will" come to the Son "may" come.
    (No Calvinist would disagree with this. All who “will” to come may come, other verses tell us who the ones that "will" to come are (John 6:37;Acts 13:48).

    2.)This verse does not address whether a person "can" (has the ability to) come (Rom. 3:11;John 6:44).
    (There is a difference between, "May I" and "Can I". We all learned this from our first grade teacher!) [​IMG]

    Question: Does this verse address the "ability" of mans will or do you have to assume it?

    Does saying someone may do something, the same as saying that they can do something?

    In Christ... (I may not can respond till next week) Looking forward to the discussion.
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
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    It is addressed to those who are outside the gates, 22:14. <G>
     
  3. Wes Outwest

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    Context is everything Southern. Your questions regarding this passage are inappropriate.

    First this has nothing to do with Salvation! The reason is this. The New Jerusalem, the HOLY CITY whose four walls are each 1500 miles in length and height, is on the New Earth because this earth that we live on today has passed away, and the final judgment Revelation 20:14,15 has taken place. So salvation is not the issue here.

    There is no mention of "coming to the Son", it is rather coming to the water of the river of life. My gracious, where does the water come from? It flows from the Throne of God, down the streets of Gold with the trees of life on either side of the river.

    A better question would be, Why is there a river of life if we already have everlasting life through believing in Jesus?
     
  4. Southern

    Southern
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    Wes,
    This was for all the Arminians who usually cited this verse. If you are not one of them, then it is irrelevant to you. I tried to make posts on the verses that Arminians cite, because when you try to discuss a particular passage, they never usually do not defend their position from the context, but depend on a string of proof texts that not a one teaches what they say all of them together teach. When you disect them one by one, Arminianism falls to the ground and the glorious Doctrines of Grace shine brighter!

    In Christ

    C.H. Spurgeon-
    I have my own Private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.
     
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Don't think so! All one needs to dispell the "glorious doctrines of Grace" is a clear understanding of what grace is! If you are Calvinist, then you do not have such an understanding of Grace! The result will be that you get the props kicked right out from under you if that is your position.

    Let me tell you, I am not Calvinist, nor am I Arminian, both of whom were mere mortals just as you and I are. I am Christian!
     
  6. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Southern;
    This also tells us who they are and they are the whole world.
    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    May God Give You light then Peace;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    or 'deplorable doctines of entrapment?'

    Even an alleged "Totally Depraved" sinner created in the'image of God' [James 3;9] has enough thought process to understand that this "Unconditional Election" and "Limited Atonement" is antithetical to a view of a good and Christian God.
     
  8. Southern

    Southern
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    Maybe I missed it but none of you addressed the specific questions that I asked (besides Wes who dismissed it as irrelevant). I say this only because this verse has been quoted by certain Arminians on this board.

    In Christ
     
  9. BobRyan

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    This is the weaselage and bait-and-switch deceptive ad tactic that Calvinists typically attribute to God.

    They claim that God is using lawyer-eeze sleeze tactics to make it "appear" that all are given the invitation "freely" but then say "And by all I mean all of those in my backyard" - and "by who so ever will I mean those who I select out to will from among the many that I will not allow to WILL".

    If their god uses such low moral tactics to make it "Appear" that he is doing one thing while really doing another - how then can we expect them to be good lawyers or advertising business people? Even by our compromised standards today - such deceptive marketing practices are despised.

    Why attribute them to God just to defend Calvinism when it is confronted with Arminian texts?

    Seems like a horrible trade.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Southern

    Southern
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    Bob,

    As I look at your post I see:

    1.)Not any contextual argumentation
    2.)Not one Biblical reference
    3.)The closest to any real argumentation was name calling and disgust over my interpretation.

    In Christ...
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    This scene is after this old earth and old heaven has passed away, after the millennial reign of Jesus on this earth. And after the judgement! The new heaven and earth with the New Jerusalem are the scene. To use this passage of scripture to support any position in the here and now is sheer stupidity.
     
  12. Southern

    Southern
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    Wes,
    At least you do not use this as if it is relevant to the discussion of Calvinism/Arminianism, let me thank you for that.

    By the way, you keep looking at the context of each passage and incorporate a consistant exegesis of the scripture and you might become a Calvinist! So beware [​IMG]

    haha, thanks for your input and may God bless both of us as we search the scriptures together as brothers in Christ.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Southern,
    I have no interest in "becoming" calvinist, arminian, or being directly affiliated with any denomination! I may attend Baptist churches, but I do not affiliate with a baptist denomination.

    My faith and trust is in Jesus, the Christ, I am Christian. That is, I am not a hyphenated Christian, e.g. Calvin-Christian, Baptist-Christian, Methodist-Christian, Pauline-Christian, Catholic-Christian, etc.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    When Calvinism is confronted by disconfirming texts - it responds by editing the text or arguing from the void.

    In this case - we see an open invitation to all -

    Rev. 22: 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    But Calvinism takes each of these unlimited texts and "limits them".

    When Christ says "COME unto ME ALL that are weary" in Matt 11 - Calvinism is "stuck". It can't claim that the lost sinners are not burdened by sin - so it says "ALL who I ALLOW and enable selectively -- COME to ME". Inserting qualifier after qualifier in unqualified free invitations from Christ.

    Rev 22 is no exception.

    Even in places where the language is PERFECT for the Arminian view and devastating to Calvinism - it must edit. "HE is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" Clearly using the SAME terms that Arminians would use to describe Arminianism - and NOT using the "language of Calvinism".

    God is "NOT WILLING for ANY to Perish but for ALL to come to repentance" -- Again PERFECT Aminian language never found as the way to define Calvinism EVEN by Calvinists.

    Christ COMES into the World and "enlightens EVERY one of mankind" John 1 - another perfect Arminian text ASIS - yet totally unnacceptable to Calvinism - in that you never see Calvinists "DEFINE" Calvinism with such Arminian terms.

    And Rev 22 is no exception. The pattern simply persists here.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    I do not see how anyone can miss the fact that Jesus is the one doing the inviting. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit who urges us to come to faith in Jesus, and the Bride are all the believers in Jesus, who also invite all others to come too!
    How can you Calvinists not see that truth? The invitation is open to ALL mankind.
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    Read Rev 21:9 to see what the angel says the New Jerusalem is. You will then find it is very relevant to this discussion.
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    Why start verse 9? Why not verse 1?
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    Fine with me. Either way the New Jerusalem is the Church.
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Man, some of you guys are pretty dense :D . Calvinism does not dispute that. What Calvinism says is what God says ... that whosoever will may come. The only ones who come are the ones who are willing. YOu guys want to focus on the "whosoever" so much that you seem to forget that "will" part of it. You always end up with bad theology when you leave certain parts of it out.

    Calvinism is the truth about salvation. No one here is dodging verses. Bob knows better than to try to make that claim fly. Calvinism simply explains the verses accurately, and in the context of other Scripture. It does not single out only the verses that make one point.
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    There is absolutely no way that you can honestly read the text of Scripture and come to that conclusion. That doesn't even make sense. Where do you get this stuff from?
     

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