Revelation 1:1: Jesus

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Jun 15, 2012.

  1. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
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    This is not a deep theological question but in Revelation 1 John sees Jesus who comes to him in his exhile on patmos. I am in no way supporting jesus as being an angel with what im about to say but 1:1 says, The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1 ESV)

    The part that is tricky is the "he made it known bu sending his angel to his servant john".

    Is this an angel after john?

    Is this angel a hologram of jesus with his words and appearance?

    What are your thoughts?
     
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
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    I see a chain of communication here.

    • God gave the revelation to Jesus Christ.
    • Jesus Christ sent the revelation by His angel.
    • The angel gave the revelation to John.
    • John wrote it down and now we have it.
     
  3. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
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    I see what you mean, the issue is whenever john sees one like a son of man later and describes him he is describing Jesus because the figure says:

    When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. (Revelation 1:17-19 ESV)

    So if it was an angel it would not make sense bc jesus, the man talking to John, makes statements giving away who he is. 1:1 would have to be speaking of an angel made to be identical to christ for his message or a different angel altogether
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    revelation starts with jesus talking to John, Angel of jesus takes over to keep talking to him after jesus gives him messages to the 7 churches!
     
  5. freeatlast

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    It is an unfortunate translation. The Greek word is aggelos and it means messenger and is speaking of Christ Jesus the Lamb of God. Jesus is the Messenger of God.
     
    #5 freeatlast, Jun 15, 2012
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  6. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
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    Thanks for the responses ill think some more.

    Any more explanations?
     
  7. asterisktom

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    This was indeed an unfortunate rendition for "aggelos". The answer is simply that it is Jesus, the Messenger.
     
  8. preachinjesus

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    Let's also not forget that Revelation is written in a series a scenes and while in an ecstatic state. The major pictures of Revelation have linguistic cues that the reader does well to pick up on since they appear to be the way John is communicating a change in perspective.

    Notice in the first chapter, Jesus Christ did not personally come to John but sent an angel/angelic messenger (ala the Messenger of the Lord in the OT.) The first three verses here are the preface to the text.

    Then the transition occurs and we see that John uses a fairly standard epistolary introduction to the churches he is addressing this apocalyptic letter to and then a big transition. In 1:10 he is taken en pneumati "in the Spirit" which is the first extra-ordinary indicator where John is taken, perhaps physically or simply existentially, into an alternate reality where he then sees and receives visions. (So much for cessationism.)

    This term en pneumati becomes a substantial marker for the rest of the text. When John does see Jesus it is in this vision/trance-like state. He then also sees pictures and events which defy explanation to a first century Jew who does his best to explain these ontologically shaking events in the primary lens he can, which often is Second Temple acopalytic eschatology associated with Qumran. :)

    The challenge here is showing that Jesus is the messenger because the text, and John's descriptions, vary and almost go out of their way to show there is a difference in his revelators (angels) and when he encounters Jesus in Revelation. Eschatologically and Christologically it is impermissible to say Jesus returned to the Isle of Patmos to speak with John. Way too many problems there. When John does encounter Christ in Revelation it is always on a different temporal plane than his earthly confinements.
     
    #8 preachinjesus, Jun 15, 2012
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  9. Van

    Van
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    I think Freeatlast nailed it.
     
  10. zrs6v4

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    I am not denying that jesus is the messenger spoken of in 1:1. I am not overly comfortable with any interpretations. Is there any evidence that support why john would refer to jesus, the alpha and omega, mighty and powerful as his own messenger? I do not understand the language or cultural barrier i guess to make the simple explanation work.
     
  11. Van

    Van
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    No, and Revelation 1:1 does not say Jesus is John's messenger.

    1) God sent His messenger Jesus

    2) Jesus brought the message to His bond-servants.

    3) John was one of the bond-servants and Jesus therefore communicated the message to John.

    So to repeat, Jesus is not John's messenger, John received the message as a bond-servant of God.
     

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