Revelation 12

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by neal4christ, Jun 10, 2003.

  1. neal4christ

    neal4christ
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    I was wondering who you take the woman in Revelation 12:1-6, 13-17 to be. I think I know the Catholic's answer (but please, answer anyway), and I would like input especially from Protestants. Also, I will include verse 19 from chapter 11 because I believe Catholics see this to go with Chapter 12.

    "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." Rev. 11:19

    "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." Rev. 12:1-6

    "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:13-17

    We seem to gather that the man child is Jesus Christ (v. 5), the dragon is Satan (v. 9), and the woman's seed are believers in Christ (v. 17). So who do you say this woman is? How do you understand this passage? I am especially interested in your views of verses 13-17.

    Thanks a lot and look forward to reading the posts! [​IMG] Please, let's not let this turn into a bashing session for either side. [​IMG]

    Neal [​IMG]
     
  2. neal4christ

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    No takers? :confused:

    Neal
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Takers! Takers By all means!

    The Woman is "The Pure Church of God" in all ages. Prior to the Birth of Christ the "Pure Church of God" is the One True Hebrew nation church sovereignly started by God at Sinai with "forever" promises of His teaching word and His Holy Spirit.

    As Rev 12 points out - the SAME pure church that gives Birth to Christ "For Salvation is OF THE JEWS" according to Christ John 4:22 - flees into the wilderness for 1260 years after Christ is taking to heaven - and persecution of the Christian church begins.

    The remnant are simply those that are "left over" after the 1260 year period of persecution.

    The "earth" swallows the flood (where "flood of many waters" is a symbol of armies and war in symbolic prophecy) which means that the geography of the planet itself comes into play in rescuing faithful Christians from persecution.

    And that actually did happen.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Me2

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    I agree with Bob...its the true "remnant" throughout the history of Israel and the church age.

    although I dont see the 1260 year persecution.

    the two wings that carry the woman is the testimony of christ. wisdom and understanding.

    the 1260 is a 3 1/2 period. the back half of Jesus mission (which is a total of 7 years)

    3 1/2 + 3 1/2 = 7

    the first 3 1/2 period of Jesus ministry was the "wisdom" (Jesus (the word) dying in the flesh).
    the second 3 1/2 period is the invisible time period which the Holy spirit teaches us by faith the "understanding".
    Both together is the testimony of Jesus Christ (knowledge). which the second part is to us invisible and by faith, that we have to be tried in order to accept ....by faith (sanctification).
    (we actually have to experience this ..like holding the proof in our hands) in other words our flesh will have to dye to self. and we finally accept the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

    the "church" is taken into the wilderness on the wing of the testimony of Christ (wisdom and understanding) to be tried by fire of the holy spirit. (along with the persecutions of Satan)


    the flood out of Satans mouth is pride...(of life)

    I know...Huh?
    Me2
     
  5. DHK

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    It is evident that the woman is Israel. Israel is often referred to with the pronoun "she." It was through Israel that the man child (Jesus Christ) came, who Satan tried to kill. It is Israel that Satan will persecute in the Tribulation, especially during the second half of the Tribulation period when the pact or treaty will be broken by the anti-christ, and the Temple defiled. Then the Jews shall be bitterly persecuted for a time, times and half a time, or three and a half years. After that period of time Christ will come in His glory, and put down all those that persecute Israel. He will set up His Millennial Kingdom and reign from the Throne of David. Israel shall receive Him as their Messiah, "And so all Israel shall be saved" (Rom.11:26).

    Rev.1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    "They also which pierced him," that is the Jews, will be saved at that time, when He comes again to redeem and rescue His people (the Jews) from the hands of their enemies, and the hand of Satan.
    DHK
     
  6. BobRyan

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    There is no question that the "Pure Church" is Israel pre-cross. But the "Pure Church" goes on post cross to be persecuted and to flee into the wilderness. The "Pure Church" of God after the cross is viewed by many to be "the Christian Church" - spiritual Israel - One Group pre and post cross - simply the faithful followers of God in all ages.

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Me2

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    also the OT precursor..

    the OT tabernacle was in the wilderness.

    John the baptist preaching in the wilderness...

    Jesus persecution in the wilderness...

    but the journey for the woman.. back into the wilderness is a little different. she goes into there with the testimony of Christ.
    "wisdom and understanding"

    (wilderness here being back into the family where the disobedient children as well as obedient children are..)

    to continue to "preach" to them...in the wilderness.

    where satan is. to help the disobedient and obedient learn of the lust of the flesh (antichrist..the flesh, the "beast")..the lust of the eyes (false prophet..or the "world"..idols)..and satan..the pride of life.

    the woman here is seen as the psuedeo mother of the child.. wereas the real church is the psuedeo mother to Gods seed..or in a better idea, the midwife, helping in the birthing process of Gods the fathers children (seed). as well as delivering to the child, Gods wisdom, thru physical example.
     
  8. Briguy

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    I go along with DHK.

    Catholic teaching is that the woman is Mary. I find that somewhat odd as in just a few more chapters on in Rev. Babylon (sp? - mind blank) is spoke of as a woman. The woman in Rev. has to be a "nation" or "peoples" to be consistant. Isreal brought us Jesus, therefore the woman is Isreal.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  9. Trust in the Lord

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    I agree with DHK and Briguy...the Woman is Israel.
     
  10. faithcontender

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    I agree with DHK, Briguy and Trust in the LORD. It is the nation of Israel. The crown of twelve stars upon her forehead speak of the twelve tribes of Israel.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    she goes into there with the testimony of Christ."wisdom and understanding"

    Very true - The Woman "the Pure Church of God" before the Birth of Christ (the ONE TRUE Hebrew nation CHURCH of God pre-Cross) - goes into the wilderness as the Christian church AFTER Christ ascends into heaven (The One True CHRISTIAN Church) and is persecuted.

    She - the Woman is "The SAINTS" and "THEIR testimony" is as is stated in Rev 12:11,17 regarding the blood of the Lamb "And the word of THEIR testimony".

    #1. We are never called in scripture "The seed of Mary" or the "children of Mary".

    #2. There is no text of scripture showing any power seeking to take the life of Mary after the resurrection of Christ. In fact we find almost no mention AT ALL of Mary after the resurrection of Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. thessalonian

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    Briguy,

    "Catholic teaching is that the woman is Mary."

    Not quite Brian. The Catholic view is not just that the woman in Rev 12 is Mary. We say that it is Mary, but it is not a contradiction to say it is the Church (which we do) or Isreal (which we do). Protestants are always setting up dichotomies that simply aren't there. Mary as a type of the Church reflects what the Church is. Israel reflects what the Church is and as Brian rightly pointed out bore Christ in to the world.
    So did Mary.

    Some questions for you:
    Who is the light of the world? Christ or Us?
    See mt. 5:14, John 8:12.

    Who is the foundation of the Church? Christ or
    Us?
    See Eph 2:20, 1 Cor 3:11

    Who is the Rock? Christ or Peter?
    See Mt. 16:18, Hebrews "and the Rock was Christ"

    Who get's persecuted on this earth? Christians or Christ?
    don't have the verses offhand but Jesus said "Saul, why do you persecute me?". When did saul persecute Christ?

    Blessings

    [ June 11, 2003, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
     
  13. thessalonian

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    As a PS to my above post, who are we supposed to imitate?

    Christ/God right?

    Ephesians 5:1
    Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;


    That's what I was taught. So what is with that idolatrous fool Paul? He says to imitate people. Idolatry?

    Hebrews 13:7
    Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

    Hebrews 6:12
    so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

    1 Thessalonians 1:6
    You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,


    Even himself.

    1 Corinthians 4:16
    Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.

    IDOLATAR?

    Not really....

    1 Corinthians 11:1
    Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

    The tie to all of these false dichotomies you guys raise is Christ.

    It is through him that Peter is the Rock.
    Through him that prophets and apostles are the foundation and thus he is the foundation.
    Through him that we are the light of the world.
    Through Paul's imitation of him we are to imitate Paul.

    Enough for now.

    Blessings
     
  14. GraceSaves

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    I thought the woman here is more predominantly called the harlot? Doesn't that force a differentiation?

    God bless you,

    Grant
     
  15. DHK

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    There is no reference at all to a harlot in this chapter.

    12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    This could hardly refer to a harlot. It is in reference to the one who brought forth Christ, who would rule all nations with a rod of iron (a time yet to come). The reference is to the nation from which Christ came--Israel.

    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    Satan will make war with whose seed? "her seed." That is the seed of the woman, specifically, Israel. At that time Christ will come and deliver Israel, and overcome Satan, "and so all Israel shall be saved." (Rom.11:26).
     
  16. thessalonian

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    DHK,

    It would be good if you would try to follow the conversation and refer to the post by Briguy before you speak. That way you would know what he was referring to. I am sure grant knows quite well there in no harlot in rev 12.
     
  17. GraceSaves

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    Thank you Thess. This was made clear by reading what Brian wrote (in reference to "other chapters" with the woman in reference to Babylon).

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  18. BobRyan

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    #1. No text says Christ is the ONE the only one persecuted.

    But there IS a text saying "there is ONE God and ONE Mediator between God and Man" 1Tim 2:5

    #2. And there IS a text saying that "NO other foundation CAN be laid - other than Christ" 1Cor 3:11

    #3. And there IS a text saying that "Christ IS THE ROCK - the Petra IS Christ" 1Cor 10:4

    Even Eph 2:20 does not claim "Peter is the Foundation of the church" Rather it as that Christ IS the Rock - the corner stone and NEXT to that is Peter - oops I mean the text says "NEXT to that are ALL the 12 Apostles".

    The Woman in Rev 12 is the "Pure Church" in all ages long "And THEY over came the dragon because of the blood of the LAMB and the word of THEIR testimony".
    Rev 12:11


    In Christ,

    bob
     
  19. Kamoroso

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    Rev 12:1-6 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


    Rev 12:13-17 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    If the woman of Rev. 12 is Mary, then how does one explain all of the things said about her in this chapter? What was the wilderness that she fled to? What was the period of 1260 days, and the time, times, and a half of a time, that she was nourished in the wilderness? What was the flood of water that was cast out of the serpents mouth after her? How did the earth help Mary? These things alone, make it obvious, that Rev. 12 is not talking about Mary.

    Verse 17 says that the remnant of her seed keep the commandments of God. This can not be referring to the Catholic Church, for they do not keep the commandments of God. They have changed the fourth, and break the second routinely.

    A woman in prophecy is a church. A pure woman, is God's church, and a whore, or harlot is an apostate church. God chose the nation of Israel to maintain a knowledge of Him in this world, until His own Son would come into the world to reveal the Father. The father of the nation of Israel, was Abraham, through whose seed the entire world would be blessed. It was this old covenant church, or nation of God that brought forth the man child spoken of in Rev. 12. At which time, the new covenant nation, or church of God began to be established. This woman, that is the new covenant church of God, is what the prophecies of Rev. 12 are referring to, not Mary.

    Gen 22:17-18 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
    18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    Gen 26:4-5 I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    The prophecies of Rev. 12 are referring to the conflict between the new covenant church, and the devils attempts to destroy the man child, Christ, and His followers after Him. If the woman of Rev. 12:1 is Mary, then what sense can anyone make of the rest of the things said about this woman in the remainder of the Chapter? On the other hand, if the woman of Rev. 12:1 is the church, which it is, then one can make sense of the rest of the prophecy concerning this woman in chap. 12.

    Uriah Smith says the following about the woman of Rev. 12.
    A woman,” the true church. A corrupt woman is used to represent an
    apostate of corrupt church. Eze. 23:2-4; Revelation 17:3-6,15,18. By
    parity of reasoning, a pure woman, as in this instance, would represent the
    true church.
    “The sun,” the light and glory of the gospel dispensation.
    “The moon,” the Mosaic dispensation. As the moon shines with a
    borrowed light derived from the sun, so the former dispensation shone with
    a light borrowed from the present. There they had the type and shadow;
    here we have the antitype and substance.
    “A crown of twelve stars,” the twelve apostles.

    No symbols more fitting and impressive could be found than are here
    employed. The Mosaic dispensation shone with a light borrowed from the
    Christian dispensation, just as the moon shines with light borrowed from
    the sun. How appropriate, therefore, to represent the former by the moon,
    and the latter by the sun. The woman, the church, had the moon under her
    feet; that is, the mosaic dispensation had just ended, and the woman was
    clothed with the light of the gospel sun, which had just risen. By the figure
    of the prolepsis, the church is represented as fully organized, with its
    twelve apostles, before the man-child, Christ, appeared upon the scene.
    This is easily accounted for by the fact that it was to be thus constituted
    immediately after Christ should commence his ministry; and he is more
    especially connected with this church than with that of the former
    dispensation. ( Daniel and the Revelation by Uriah Smith, Chap.12 pages 440 &441 )

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    Within the constituency of Christendom there have been different views as to what Revelation twelve is referring to within those seventeen verses. Some brethren think that it speaks of Mary, to others the church and still others the nation of Israel.

    Since Revelation chapters eleven through fourteen deals with Israel, one might think just on the basis of continuity that John must be speaking about the nation of Jesus birth in chapter twelve. Why does the evil one hate Israel as noted in Biblical truth as well as in our time? He hates the land of His birth because it is through Jesus that souls are made fit and secured for Heaven and everlasting life. It was through the virgin Mary that our Savior was brought into our sphere as ordained by Almighty God Himself.

    Revelation eleven speaks of the place ' . . . where our Lord was crucified,' a sure marker to the city of Jerusalem.

    Revelation chapter thirteen speaks of the 'beast' who is the antichrist, a person who is yet to come who will cause people to take the 'mark of the beast' in the hand or in the forehead. This world ruler is a man [Revelation 13:18 c] This person eventually will take his seat of authority in Jerusalem as spoken about in II Thessalonians 2:4 in the Temple yet to be built which will be called, at least by us, as the Great Tribulation Temple. The antichrist purpose is not to deny the existence of Christ, as the atheist and the agnostic does, but he will declare himself to be Christ. Satan possibly knows of the coming Messianic Kingdom which is to come and will tailor the antichrist/man to fulfil all of the Scriptural Messianic promises to Israel at noted in Romans chapter nine.

    Revelation fourteen verse three speaks of the 144,000 who will be singing the song of the redeemed. Back in chapter seven of this same book we learn that these people will be from among ' . . . the children of Israel' twelve thousand from each tribe. In chapter fourteen they are in Heaven, while in the previous chapter seven these people were on the earth.

    This without much doubt assures us that Revelation chapter twelve must also be about Israel. Because of the virgin Mary living in Israel and bringing forth the baby Jesus in Bethlehem, that the evil one desired to devour the newborn. [vs. 4] Remember Herod's attempt to destroy the child.

    In verse five of this chapter twelve of Revelation we learn and have the promise that Jesus Kingdom will be after the rapture, be headquartered in Jerusalem [Zechariah 14:16]. We say this because Jesus will rule the nations. [vs. 9]

    The last phrase of Revelation 12:5 points, most clearly, to Jesus ascension into Heaven after the His death for us on the Cross. [Acts 1:9]

    Revelation 12:6 moves us to a future time and place called the wilderness. This is also pictured for us in Matthew chapter 24:5-26. Because of the oppression of the antichrist Matt. 24:16 tells us that the Israelites will flee to the mountains and into the wilderness as noted in Revelation 12:6. After the rapture of the church and their experience at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven, on the earth for seven years there will be going on the Great Tribulation as confirmed in Matthew 24:21. Now in Revelation 12:6 during the last half of that seven years, the Jewish people, like the holocaust during W.W. II, will probably flee to the remaining walls and fortress where the Romans chased the Israelites in 70 A.D. {the name escapes me at the moment} The Jewish people all committed suicide rather than being captured and tortured by the Roman legion.

    We do know that before Creation Satan was cast out of Heaven and now our world is controlled by him, [II Cor. 4:4] but always under the ultimate leverage of Jesus Christ, our God. Some theologians think that Revelation 12:10 refers to a future time when Christ will allow Satan to harass the world via the Great Tribulation, with something worse than the Jewish holocaust ever knew.

    In verse eleven indicates that indeed many, many souls will be martyred for their faith in their Savior, Jesus Christ, because they refused to receive the mark of the beast, required by the antichrist.

    Verse 14 is still another pointer as to the Israelites fleeing away from the site of the enthroned and empowered, antichrist. Notice they flee 'from the face of the serpent,' meaning the power of the Devil.

    In verse 17 the dragon [Revelation 12:9a] a reference to Satan is still angry with 'the woman' meaning Israel and her remnant who are saved, Israelites and some Gentiles. These people are those who keep the commandments of God and have in their souls the testimony of our Lord Jesus.

    This is why I believe that Revelation chapter twelve refers to the restored nation of Israel rather than a reference to the church or Mary the mother of our Lord.
     

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