Revelation 2:21

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by IndpndntBptst, Jan 29, 2003.

  1. IndpndntBptst

    IndpndntBptst
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    "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not." (Revelation 2:21)

    I want an honest opinion from a Calvinist on this verse. I don't want to start an argument or be unkind because we are Christians! We should be able to discuss the Bible without fighting. The only thing I've got from a Calvinist on this board is a very bad attitude so far.

    The same word "gave" (Gr. didomi) used in Revelation 2:21 is used in John 6:37, 65. God gave this woman space to repent, but she didn't. Was God sincere in giving her space to repent? Did she even have a chance in the first place?
     
  2. KenH

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    God is always sincere.

    Yes, she could have repented just like Nineveh repented when Jonah preached to them.
     
  3. npetreley

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    So that's where you got your bad attitude! ;) You couldn't have gotten mine, since I still have it right here.

    Wow! Without even looking up the verse, I'll bet the word translated as "repent" is the same one that's translated as "repent" in Acts 2:38! "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized". So that proves Peter wrote Revelation, and not John, right?

    Seriously, I can't imagine what it is you're getting at here. You found two places where God gives something, see that the word is the same, and without considering the context of either you think there's a connection?

    But as to the gist of your question, remember that God also gave space to Pharoah to repent and let His people go. Yet God not only knew what Pharoah's response would be, God depended upon that very response in order to bring about His will, and even intensified the response with His hardening.

    In other words, space to repent says nothing about free will. If you actually think God gives people space to repent in order to wait and see if they will or will not, since God is not sure of the outcome, then you're going to have to rewrite a LOT of the Bible.
     
  4. IndpndntBptst

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    Well, according to Calvinistic theology all those the Father GIVES to the Son will come (John 6:37, 65). But according to Revelation 2:21 it was GIVEN to the woman to repent, but she did not. And yes, your attitude is the kind I'm talking about. :eek:
     
  5. KenH

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    The verse says it was space, or time, that was given, not repentance.

    If the woman was saved, then it falls under Hebrews 12:4-11.

    [ January 29, 2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]
     
  6. Yelsew

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    God does not give repentance, that is something we must do!
     
  7. npetreley

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    Well, it's not something you MUST do. I hear that if you earn enough Bible bucks in sunday school you can trade them in for repentance.

    It is of him who runs and him who wills, not of God who shows mercy!
     
  8. KenH

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    You are half correct, Yelsew. [​IMG] Repenting is something we must do.

    Luke 13:3(NASB)
    3 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

    And God does grant it according to the Bible.

    Acts 5:31(NASB)
    31 “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    2 Timothy 2:25(NASB)
    25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

    [ January 29, 2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]
     
  9. sturgman

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    So maybe repentance is something that must happen, yet maybe it is a reponce and not an action...mmmm... That even works gramatically! Thanks!!!
     
  10. Frogman

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    I would say it is a response, one that we accomplish only under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Without this prompting, we may perform the action, but with no saving results.

    The person must thirst for God, but the natural man has a thirst for this world. Once the Holy Spirit visits and the truth of human nature shown, then the thirst is there and then the Holy Spirit turns our hearts from the world and toward God, that is true repentance--which is a result of a Godly sorrow and not a worldly sorrow.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. Monergist

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    Hi brother. Just wanted to point out that the above statement is not "according to Calvinistic theology,"....

    Its according to the verses you just referenced [​IMG]
     
  12. tyndale1946

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    This is from the pen of Dr. John Gill in relation to a verse that contradicts your verse if it is in relation to repentance for eternal salvation.

    Romans 11:29

    Ver. 29. For the gifts and calling of God,.... By "gifts" are meant, not the gifts of nature and providence, as life, health, strength, riches, and honour, which God sometimes gives, and repents of, and takes away; as he repented that he had made man upon earth, and Saul king of Israel; which must be understood by an "anthropopathy", after the manner of men, and that not of a change of the counsel of his mind, but of the course of his providence: nor do gifts here design external gifts of grace, or such gifts of the Spirit, which qualify men for ministerial work, for public service in the church; for these may be taken away, as the "parable" of the "talents" shows, Mt 25:29; see 1Co 13:8; but the special and spiritual gifts of God's free grace, which relate to the spiritual and eternal welfare of the souls of men, even that, grace which was given to God's elect in Christ before the world was, and all those spiritual blessings wherewith they were then blessed in him: these

    are without repentance; that is, they are immutable and unalterable; God never revokes them, or calls them in again, or takes them away from the persons to whom he has made such a previous donation: the reasons are, because that his love from whence they spring is always the same; it admits of no distinction, nor of any degrees, nor of any alteration; and electing grace, according to which these gifts are bestowed, stands sure and immovable; not upon the foot of works, but of the sovereign will of God, and always has its sure and certain effect; and the covenant of grace, in which they are secured, remains firm and inviolable; and indeed, these gifts are no other than the promises of it, which are all yea and amen in Christ, and the blessings of it, which are the sure mercies of David. Whatever God purposes, or promises to give, or really does give to his people, whether into the hands of Christ for them, or into their own, he never repents of or reverses. Agreeably to these words of the apostle, the Jews say {g}

    "that the holy blessed God, after hntmh Ntnv, "that he hath given a gift", lbqmh hnxqy al, "never takes it away from the receiver"; and this is the "Gemara", or doctrine of the Rabbins {h} ylqv al lqvm ybhy bhymd, "that giving they give, but taking away they do not take away"; the gloss upon it is, ybhyd rtb, "after it is given":''

    the meaning is, that what is once given to men from heaven, is never taken away from them up into heaven: and elsewhere {i} they ask,

    "is there any servant to whom his master gives a gift, and returns and takes it away from him?''

    Moreover, the apostle here says the same of the "calling of God", as of gifts; by which is meant, not a bare external call by the ministry of the word, which oftentimes is without effect, and may be where persons are neither chosen, nor converted, nor saved; but an internal effectual call, by special, powerful, and efficacious grace; and designs either actual calling, to which are inseparably annexed final perseverance in grace, and eternal glorification; or rather the purpose of God from eternity, to call his people in time, and which is never repented of, or changed. The apostle's argument here is this, that since there are a number of people among the Jews whom God has loved, and has chosen to everlasting salvation, and has in covenant promised to them, and secured and laid up gifts for them, and has determined to call them by his grace; and since all these are unchangeable and irreversible, the future call and conversion of these persons must be sure and certain... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ January 30, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  13. tyndale1946

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    Btw... The Woman who was give space to repent of her fornication... Was in relation to spiritual fornication and not natural... Which is Idolatry!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  14. IndpndntBptst

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    tyndale1946,

    Repentance is absolutely necessary for eternal salvation.

    "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" (Acts 3:19)

    If there is no repentance, there is no eternal salvation. If there is no repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins. There are only two possibilitites: (1) Repent or (2) Perish.

    "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (II Peter 3:9)

    Whether the "us-ward" is referring to the world or to the elect, repentance is clearly necessary for eternal salvation. If repentance is not necessary, tell me why God is being longsuffering? It is clear that if one does not repent, they will perish. Period!
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    IndpndnBptst,

    God new she would not repent, but in that which we call 'time' He gave her time to repent. As you know God said, not that He did or did not hand her repentance, but ' . . . she repented not.' God once again shows us that He makes human beings responsible for their final destination. The 'she' shows us human agency and not that the Lord sovereignly mandated her sin and rebellion.
     
  16. npetreley

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    Let's assume for the sake of argument that she had the free will to repent or not repent. Does God have perfect foreknowledge? If yes, then He knew in advance that it didn't matter how much time He gave her to repent. So even in a free will scenario, why would He give her time to repent if He knew it wouldn't matter?
     
  17. sturgman

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    Npetreley, don't go adding logic to the debate. That really screws them up. [​IMG]
     
  18. The_Narrow_Road

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  19. sturgman

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    Ok, and where are you getting that God is a dictator? God is a king. Not a president. That is your difference. You are correct, man has a will, and there is freedom in that will, but that is not free will. A fish can swim in deep water, and it can swim in shallow water, it cannot come out of the water. Its will is subject to its nature. As a sinner I have freedom, but one of those freedoms is not acting righteous. repentence is by faith, and faith is by God. How is God a cruel dictator? Why can't that make him a sovereign king? And to top that off, he is a merciful king. For him to save one, that is mercy, but He saved a multitude. Just because God can, that doesn't mean he ought. Would God be right to save none? Yes. Is he wrong if he only saved a few? No, God cannot be wrong. See Romans 9:22,23. That is what He did.
     
  20. IndpndntBptst

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    Amen! Calvinism and Antinomianism must be related because they both give men an excuse to sin. No man has an excuse because God "commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30). When Peter was preaching to the men of Israel that crucified the Lord of glory in Acts 3:19, he said, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" It was not a matter of whether or not they were of the elect, nor did Peter inquire if they were already of the elect before he preached to them as Hyper-Calvinists teach.

    Yes, let's stay ignorant shall we?! Don't try to use the common sense God gave us...
     

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