Revelation 20:4

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Don, Jul 21, 2003.

  1. Don

    Don
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    Who are those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus? Who didn't worship the beast or take his mark?

    Were they the 144,000?

    Or those that were saved after the rapture (if you're a pre-tribulationist type)?

    What do y'all think?
     
  2. Don

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    Nothing?
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

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    I am waiting for any pretribber to answer on's question on Re. 20:4
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

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    excuse me, I have troubling with my computer keyboards while typing. I supose to say, "Don's questio", not,'on's question'. Just let you know, that's all.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20- Amen!
     
  5. BrianT

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    I think it's referring to martyrs, most likely from all church history.
     
  6. lighthouse

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    Don,
    Rev.20:4 is about the tribulation period Christians. Compare that to Rev. chapter 13. It talks about the tribulation period. The 144,000 are the "preachers" of the trib. period(Rev.14) the firstfruits of the "everlasting gospel". They will save many(Rev.7:9,13,14), before they are raptured out along with the two witnesses(Rev.11:12).
     
  7. Me2

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    Revelations is symbolic..match up the symbols. clues in Rev 20:4 are simple names...

    beheaded?..

    first, Christ is the "brides head" and the bride is his body...or another names is the "church"

    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    the "firstfruits", are the "sons of God".

    Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
    Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    the church, is another name for the bride, which is another name for the firstfruits, which are another name for the Sons of God.

    they are also the 144,000 virgins and the 24
    elders... yet another name..

    many prospectives of the same group of believers...

    the scene john first sees of heaven is an absolute scene. The husband and his bride...or as John writes it, Lord Jesus Christ ETERNALLY surrounded by 24 worshippers..

    this scene brings eternity past,present and future into Johns focus.

    the eternal worship of Jesus our LORD, and God..
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    The answer comes within the verse in question:
    Fact: These were beheaded
    Fact: They were martyred for witness of Jesus
    Fact: They were martyred for fidelity to the Word
    Fact: They had not worshiped AntiChrist
    Fact: They had not worshiped the image of AntiChrist
    Fact: They had not received AntiChrist's mark in hand/forehead
    Fact: They then lived/reigned in the Milennium

    So from these facts we see these are Tribulation saints who were faithful, martyred, then rewarded by their Lord in the Kingdom.

    Beyond that is conjecture.
     
  9. Don

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    Thanks, Dr. B. The reason I bring it up is because I see it the same way.

    Now, to put more of a twist on it: When y'all say "Tribulation saints," are we talking pre-rapture?

    Or, as I read Revelation, after the rapture?
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

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    Y'all,

    Do you consider, "Tribulation saints" are part of the Body of Christ as Church????
     
  11. DeafPosttrib

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    Second,

    Resurrecton of the saints will not be occur yet till thousands of the saints will be killed in the Great Tribulation then will be fullfilled - Rev. 6:11.

    Rev. 20:4 tells us, resurrection cannot occur yet TILL Christians MUST face Antichrit first.

    Also, Rev. 4:1-2 say NOTHING on 'resurrection'.

    Word, 'resurrection' is not appear first time in the Book of Revelation TILL finally appear v. 20:4 first time.


    Prove that the Church will face Antichrist first before the reurrection(see 2 Thess 2:3).

    Resurrection wil be occur at the coming of Christ - 1 Thess 4:15-18.

    Rapture does not separate from the second advent.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  12. lighthouse

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  13. lighthouse

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    Deafposttrib writes:
    1] "Rev. 20:4 tells us resurrection cannot occur yet till Christians must face the anti-christ."

    Rev. 20:4 is not talking about the church age Christians, who are raptured out after the church age. Chapters 2,3 is the history of the church age, and the church is no longer on earth after Rev.4:1. The passage is talking about the trib saints, those that get saved after the church is gone. 1Thess.4:16-18 and 1Cor.15:51-54 are the passages dealing with the rapture, while 2Thess. is dealing with the physical 2nd coming of the Lord with all His saints(1Thess.3:13). Christians will not face the wrath of the anti-christ because we are not appointed unto wrath(1Thess.5:9). God's wrath was put on His Son in our place. Enoch was raptured out before God's wrath, the flood, while Noah, a type of the Jew goes through the tribulation for rejecting the Godhead. In the end, one third of the nation of Israel, along with some gentiles will finally reconize who the messiah is(Zech.13:6-9) and receive Him as The Lord. The 1st.Resurrection is three fold:
    1] Christ(Col. 1:18)
    Many of the old testament Saints(Matt.27:52,53)
    2] The church (1Thess.4:16,17; Rev.4:1)
    3] Trib and the two witnesses(Rev.11:12; 20:4)
    THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION: BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION. 20:6
    These are all the saved of all time. But the rest of the dead,(lost people) lived not again till the thousand years are over(during the kingdom age). That will be the 2nd resurrection, the judgement of all lost people of all time.
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

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    Lighthouse,

    The problem is, word, 'resurrection' is not appear in Rev. 4:1-2. Also, Rev. 4:1-2 is speak of John's experince, that his vision was shown in the heaven by the revelation. That does not mean it is a rapture. John was asked to come up there same with Rev. 17:1; and Rev. 21:9 too. John was asked to come up there. John is the only one person who received revealtion in the Spirit through Jesus Christ, his vision went up to heaven to see the things.

    Rev. 4:1-2 have do nothing with the second advent. Also, verse 1-2 do not saying Jesus descend from heaven either.

    Christians will be persecute and many will be killed by Antichrist in the Great Tribulation - Rev. 13:7,10.

    Resurrection will be occur at the second advent after Christians already face Antichrist first.

    No way, there is different kind of the saints - "Church" saints and "Tribulation" saints. Yet both are same group, well as both are part of the Body of Christ.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  15. Denise Swiney

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    Helo Don,
    I believe it to be those after the Rapture. Many do not believe that the return of Christ is two-fold. Rapture of the church, then return with the saints.
    As far as the tribulation saints being part of the body or the bride, they couldnt be.
    As the church has to be married to Christ before the second coming.
    Deaf post trib I dont understand what you mean by the ressurection will be occuring at the coming of Christ?
    The resurrection takes place at the rapture.

    Christians must face the antichrist? This seems very strange, since God has always taken his people out of the way before Judgment. Just as he did Noah before the flood, Lot before Sodom, as far as in Thessalonians who is it that is restraining the antichrist now? Holy Spirit? The Chruch? 2Thessalonians 2:7

    Sis Denise
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

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    Y'all,

    I ask you a question.

    How many resurrections will be occur in the future time for the saints????? Please prove me where verse in the Bibke saying there will be several future resurrections of the saints.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     

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