Revelation 22.17

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Feb 14, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Here is what I believe, as plainly put as I can put it from Scripture.

    "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

    This is Revelation 22.17 as you know.

    What is said here?

    "...the Spirit and the bride say, Come."

    The Spirit is the Holy Spirit of course. Since this forum is dealing with Calvinism/Arminianism I will forgo what I believe concerning the bride.

    Next, we read, "And let him that heareth say, Come.

    here we see 'him that heareth' (Greek akouo Strong's # 191)--used in various senses: give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), ([shall]) hear (er, ken,), be noised, be reported, understood.

    In this we see a differentiation (though the same word) the distinction is that the 'heareth' (or akouo) can be used to refer to someone who hears and understands; or someone who hears, but does not understand (what is heard is (noised) it is (reported), but not understood.

    How do we determine what is being spoken here?

    Scripture says 'let him that heareth say, Come.' this means the 'let him' understands what he has heard and thus is able to say along with the Spirit and bride, "Come." Someone hearing the same report, but understanding it not, cannot proclaim what they have heard, they cannot 'say Come.'

    Then scripture says: "And let him who is athirst come." These are they who have heard, and having their interest aroused by the Spirit do come, they are thirsty for the True Word of God; they are thirsty for the cup of Salvation, because they have been made to thirst after it by way of understanding the message.

    Finally, this scripture ends with: "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." These again are those who have heard the message, they have understood the message and they have been made thirsty, then they become the 'whosoever will, who are able to take the water of life freely.

    All of this begins with the Spirit and before there can be any who take of the water of life freely, their hearing [understanding] must first be opened by the Holy Spirit.

    The Gospel is to be proclaimed freely to all peoples as the Spirit will lead men into those opportunities; but only the Spirit can make any thirsty for the cup of salvation, whereby they may freely drink of the water of life.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  2. npetreley

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    Wonderful exegesis! I hope those who currently see it as a free will call will recognize how beautifully your explanation of this passage harmonizes with the other scriptures (such as Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 12:3, etc.).
     
  3. Yelsew

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    So, are you saying that there is no elect, and that the call is for everyone who has ears and hears the invitation?
    THAT is what Revelation 22:17 says!
    That is what the New Testament Says!
    That is what the Old Testament says!

    Or, are you saying that the Bride is the Elect? If yes, I challenge you to prove it!
     
  4. sturgman

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    So there is an invitation in scripture? Now all we have to do is find the first bullitin. [​IMG]

    So salvation is a chance... I see... :rolleyes:
     
  5. Frogman

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    I thought this was pretty straightforward.

    No. I don't mean the bride is the elect in the sense that the bride alone is the elect; if I believed that I wouldn't have linked my reason for not going into it with the fact this is a Calvinism/Arminianism debate forum.

    I believe Rev. 22.17 teaches, as does the entire scripture, the Gospel is to be published to all peoples, but only the elect will have their ears open to it. I know people who hear the Gospel nearly everyday, who never acknowledge they have heard any 'saving' message, nor do they proclaim that message to anyone else.

    The reason, in basic language, only the elect can have their understanding opened and be able to hear the message of the Gospel. Only the elect will turn in Godly sorrow and repentance; because it is only those who have their understanding opened who 'heareth.' All others hear the report, but it is no more than noise to them.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    This is unbiblical. The existence of the elect is clear in Scripture.

    And THAT is what Calvinism says, which you should know by now. You have certainly been around long enough that you should have laid aside your own opinions of what we believe and accepted our clear and unequivocal statements of it. There is no good reason for you not to have done so. Your perpetuation of this myths only allows to continue the conversation that should have long been over.
     
  7. Frogman

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    Too late, Scripture already bears out the truth of your challenge.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  8. romanbear

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    Hi Frogman;
    It never ceases to amaze me how Calvinist can take something so simple and make it so complicated that no one can understand it.I find it interesting that although you are trying to explain "whosoever" again as only those who God wants to hear and not just anybody, is where I believe Calvinist who rely on there on illogical explanation of the Word. I only ask you to look at what you are doing.You are taking something that is as simple as the nose on your face and transforming it in to what you want it to says. It does not say only those who hear it . The verse says those who hear.those who thirst and whosoever.In fact it is so clear that it's undeniable.The last phrase is not the inclusion of those who just hear but refers to all.
    Are Calvinist afraid that if to many people see through there misguided logic they will abandon it?If what you say about this word that is so mistranslated then why doesn't the Bible clearly explain this?.What I mean by "clearly" is without further explanation.
    Romanbear
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    There seems to be an overture to read the manuscript of the final Revelation by any human being. [Revelation1:3] This not a call to only the elect to read otherwise He would have referred to the church or His elect. Admittedly, the sinner would not understand the vast majority of spiritually, discerned truth found in this wonderful vision to John.

    In Revelation 22:17 suggest that not only the Holy Spirit but the church {bride} is calling the lost into the fold. Both the person who hears the call and the thirsty soul is saying come. Apparently, if that soul is thirsty he or she has not yet been regenerated, otherwise that person would have their thirst quenched. The 'whosoever will' suggests that a person has a will with which to respond to His gracious call. This will is not bound by God hiding the Gospel to some, and that being true we call that will free.

    Also, God is forcing some {mysterious elect} to involuntarily drink of the 'water of life,' in fact He says they that person drink without price. There is no Calvinistic compulsion found as we close the reading of this verse. God is not forcing anything; He clearly says, ' . . . let him take' and once again there must be factored into salvation the commitment of the human agency. The Greek word is (labeto) meaning 'to use strength; seize, retain, keep, lay on hand, obtain or retain.' Select one or more synonyms. Anyone who wills can seize ' . . . the water of life, freely. This Greek word for take is in the {aorist, active imperative tense} The grammatical tense suggests an act that takes place in time but with continual action or ramifications.

    In the mind of God and the Apostle John the Holy Spirit is, therefore, not calling out to some alleged, sovereignly elected few, but rather is offering His Presence to any soul who will come for refreshment. In the case of the hearers in John 5:40 these sinners would not come to Him. It was not that Jesus disallowed them from coming to Him, because they were of the non-elect. 'And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life.'
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Romanbear,

    There is nothing confusing here. The Bible says "whosoever will." You focus on the whosoever; we focus on the will. You seem to forget that people must "will" to come to Christ. Apart from the unilateral, sovereign work of God through the Holy Spirit, no one will "will" to come to Christ. In election, no one is being kept out who desires to come. Whosoever will may come. That is the calvinist position. It is your misunderstanding of the simple phrase that has led to your confusion.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    There seems to be an overture to read the manuscript of the final Revelation by any human being. [Revelation1:3] This not a call to only the elect to read otherwise He would have referred to the church or His elect. Admittedly, the sinner would not understand the vast majority of spiritually, discerned truth found in this wonderful vision to John.

    In Revelation 22:17 suggest that not only the Holy Spirit but the church {bride} is calling the lost into the fold. Both the person who hears the call and the thirsty soul is saying come. Apparently, if that soul is thirsty he or she has not yet been regenerated, otherwise that person would have their thirst quenched. The 'whosoever will' suggests that a person has a will with which to respond to His gracious call. This will is not bound by God hiding the Gospel to some, and that being true we call that will free.

    Also, God is forcing some {mysterious elect} to involuntarily drink of the 'water of life,' in fact He says they that person drink without price. There is no Calvinistic compulsion found as we close the reading of this verse. God is not forcing anything; He clearly says, ' . . . let him take' and once again there must be factored into salvation the commitment of the human agency. The Greek word is (labeto) meaning 'to use strength; seize, retain, keep, lay on hand, obtain or retain.' Select one or more synonyms. Anyone who wills can seize ' . . . the water of life, freely. This Greek word for take is in the {aorist, active imperative tense} The grammatical tense suggests an act that takes place in time but with continual action or ramifications.

    In the mind of God and the Apostle John the Holy Spirit is, therefore, not calling out to some alleged, sovereignly elected few, but rather is offering His Presence to any soul who will come for refreshment. In the case of the hearers in John 5:40 these sinners would not come to Him. It was not that Jesus disallowed them from coming to Him, because they were mysteriously of the non-elect.
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    Romanbear,

    Your statement is well taken and is within His plan for the ages. His will is still being carried out in spite of the innuendo of some who have embraced error and cast espersion on His concern for all the lost. You are not in 'confusion' as characterized by our brother in Christ. While our brother can turn a few words to enlighten Augustinian theology and human explanation we suggest he still remain open to guidance. We remain in all Christian respect toward the other theological explanation.
     
  13. Frogman

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    Thirst with a view to grow in the Grace and knowledge of God. Being thirsty as to the view of salvation is quenched eternally, but the thirst for more knowledge of God is increased as a result of the quenching of the first thirst.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    I wish to correct a sentence written on February 14 at 11:27 a.m.

    The third paragraph should read, 'Also, God is not forcing some {mysterious elect} to involuntarily drink of 'the water of life.' In fact, He says, that--that person can drink without price.
     
  15. Frogman

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    That is correct, the price was paid by Christ on the Cross.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  16. Yelsew

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    Then you admit that by man's will something happens?
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    Brother Dallas,

    I agree with you there is an on going thirst that you and I as believers do have with respect to the things of God. But Revelation 22:17 is not speaking to this issue. Your statement is clearly what theologians call, eisogesis.

    Revelation 22:17 a,b is speaking to the Holy Spirit's work/ministry and to the witness of the church {Bride}in calling to the world of lost ones.

    The rest of the verse c,d,e,f and g is speaking to the unsaved people. Thus we have the words, 'And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.'

    Maybe you can 'beat the drums' and see if any Calvinists have any quarrel with my explanation of ' . . . let him take of the water' a clear call to place in gear the human agents will. 'And whosoever will . . . ,' also is a Divine injunction to affirm His call to everlasting life.
    My regards . . .
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    You just get here??? This has always been my position. Man's will is regenerated and enabled and man comes. But man apart from that regeneration will not come. He will freely choose to reject. This is so basic to everything we have said that it is remarkable that you are just not coming to this realization. How many times has it been and how many times have you just blown past it, refusing to see what it in black and white in front of you.

    Apparently not ... at least not according to the evidence you are giving here.
     
  19. Frogman

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    Regardless of what 'Theologians' say, the use of "heareth" still distinguishes those who 'say come.'

    When we don't understand something we usually avoid it, altogether, including attempting to explain it to others, but here is the required understanding prior to one's ability to 'say come.'

    Bro. Dallas
     

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