Revelation: Local or Global?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Jan 27, 2005.

  1. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    0
    To those who believe that the Revelation only concerns local happenings (e.g., Jerusalem, Rome, etc.), how do you square Revelation 16:19 with your position?

    "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

    Notice it states, "...the cities of the nations fell..."

    The NKJV, NASB, KJV, RSV, ASV, Young's Literal Translation, et al translate this as "cities of the nations." Is there any reason to believe otherwise?
     
  2. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    The Roman Empire was made up of nations.

    According to Luke 2:1, did Augustus take a census of South Africa or perhaps Austrailia?
     
  3. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did the cities of the nations fall when Jerusalem was destroyed?
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not in 70AD.
    Not in 135AD.
     
  5. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    GH,

    The text of Luke 2 limits the understanding of "all the world should be taxed" to that region of the world under the control of the Roman empire.

    There is nothing in the context of Revelation to justify that kind of limitation. On the contrary, the focus of Revelation is global and not limited to even the Roman Empire and CERTAINLY NOT LIMITED TO JERUSALEM OR ISRAEL as preterists contend.
     
  6. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Josephus, War of the Jews, Book II chapter 18


    CHAPTER 18.

    The Calamities And Slaughters That Came Upon The Jews.

    1. Now the people of Cesarea had slain the Jews that were among them on the very same day and hour [when the soldiers were slain], which one would think must have come to pass by the direction of Providence; insomuch that in one hour's time above twenty thousand Jews were killed, and all Cesarea was emptied of its Jewish inhabitants; for Florus caught such as ran away, and sent them in bonds to the galleys. Upon which stroke that the Jews received at Cesarea, the whole nation was greatly enraged; so they divided themselves into several parties, and laid waste the villages of the Syrians, and their neighboring cities, Philadelphia, and Sebonitis, and Gerasa, and Pella, and Scythopolis, and after them Gadara, and Hippos; and falling upon Gaulonitis, some cities they destroyed there, and some they set on fire, and then went to Kedasa, belonging to the Tyrians, and to Ptolemais, and to Gaba, and to Cesarea; nor was either Sebaste [Samaria] or Askelon able to oppose the violence with which they were attacked; and when they had burnt these to the ground; they entirely demolished Anthedon and Gaza; many also of the villages that were about every one of those cities were plundered, and an immense slaughter was made of the men who were caught in them.


    Jerusalem was divided into thre factions fighting among themselves. The Zealots, the Galileans and the Idumeans.
     
  7. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Proof? Or just pre-supposition?
     
  8. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Proof. In order to understand Revelation, it must be studied in conjunction with the prophetic books of the OT. [​IMG]
     
  9. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    LadyEagle,

    Yep! Ditto. "in conjuntion with the prophetic books of the OT", not in conjunction with Josephus or Origen!


    GH,

    I do notice that you quote Josephus as your authority rather that John.

    Regarding the Global vss Local aspect of Revelation,

    John says,

    “sent forth into all the earth” 5:6

    “we shall reign on the earth” 5:10

    “every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them” 5:13

    “power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth” 6:4

    “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” 6:10

    “there was a great earthquake... and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth... and the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places” 6:12-14

    “four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth” 7:1

    “Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads” 7:3

    NOTE: That this sealing of the servants involves twelve thousand out of “all of the tribes of Israel” (7:4-8). THIS IS TOTALLY INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM!!! But FULLY COMPATIBLE WITH A FUTURE NATIONAL RESTORATION OF ISRAEL at which time they will long to cry out, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”!!! When did the Jews cry this according to preterism? and Josephus? How does he find fulfillment of the regathering of the Jews and their acceptance of the Messiah in AD 70. Oh well, back to John and Revelation...

    “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb” 7:9 - How can you get “all nations, kindreds, peoples, and tongues” out of AD 70?

    “hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up... a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood... and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed... And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters” 8:7-10 Does Josephus find this in AD 70?

    (SARCASM) Oh, I forgot, this is prophetic genre, and so we have broad sweeping generalizations that everybody understands to be figurative (but certainly not literal in ANY sense) of great judgement! (Serious now) Hence the great difference between futurism and preterism, a normal understanding of the words of Scripture. Back to John...

    Oh what is the point. Either you accept the Word of God as it is written or your overwrite it with Josephus or Origen, or Gentry, or Chilton, or DeMar, et al.

    Just read the book of Rev. The failures of preterism are patently evident to anyone not reading with preterist colored lenses. And for those reading with those special glasses, you will never see until you look at the text as it stands...
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    rjprince: "Oh what is the point. Either you accept the Word of God as it is written or your overwrite it with Josephus or Origen, or Gentry, or Chilton, or DeMar, et al."

    You forgot "Elmer Gantry" ;)
     
  11. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    LOL!

    However I would in no way question the integrity, character, or theological commitment of those in my list. Those yet alive are all men of deep faith in the Lord, serious scholarship, and strong dedication to the study and teaching of His Word, to the best of my knowledge.

    I would however challenge their hermeneutical methodology.
     
  12. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Well since Josephus was an historian, I felt he would be good to use. I guess you don’t believe the events he described took place. Funny, I grew up in dispie churches all my life and most pastors used much of the writings of Josephus. Walk into any Christian bookstore that sells “Left Behind” books and you will also find the Works of Josephus. Now all of the sudden he is some drunken bum who has no credibility. Incredible!

    So is this what your Bible College taught you? Every time you see “world” it means global? Is it too late to get your money back. You speak of context, but you proved no context. You just assume context is global because that is all you have ever been taught. I’m sure you were raised in churches and schools which had the same free thought attitude you have, “you don’t have to be a pre-mill dispie to be a member of our church, but you won’t be allowed to teach.”. So much for learning. Now let me show you what context is:

    Luke 2:1 which uses world and which you freely admit means Roman empire.

    How about Acts 11:
    27And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. 29Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea.

    You think the South Pole had this problem? How about Santa, you think he got a little thirsty up in the North Pole? How about the Rain Forest? Lets continue on:


    Matt.24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ) for a testimony unto all the nations ( eáqnov ); and then shall the end come.

    Has this happened? Into the whole World? Into ALL Nations? More commands by Jesus:


    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world ( ko/smov ), and preach the gospel to the whole creation .(ktiðsiv)

    Matt.28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations (eáqnov ), baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

    Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth ( gh=),

    Well according to Paul it did:

    Col.1:6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world ( ko/smov ) bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

    Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation ( ktiðsiv )under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister

    Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations ( eáqnov ) unto obedience of faith:

    Romans 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth ( gh=), And their words unto the ends of the world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ).

    Do I need to continue? It is clear World, Earth, Land and Nations doesn’t necessarily mean global. In fact the case can be made it rarely does.

    Jesus said that when the gospel had been preached into all the world then the end would come. (mt 24:14). Paul said it had been preached into all the world.(Rm 10:18). Perhaps this is why Peter said what he said:

    I Peter 4: 7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and selfcontrolled so that you can pray.

    Paul also understood.

    I Cor 10: 11Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

    James must have understood as well:

    5:8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    Now, if it is to be this global holocaust as you seem to believe, then why did Jesus say this:

    Luke 21:21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    Why does it matter if you leave Jerusalem, won’t you get hit by those falling stars anywhere you go?

    Of course the obvious problem is if one star fell to earth it would destroy the globe. You are aware stars are larger than planets? But you are a literalist. Lets see, that heaven departing as a scroll looks familiar. Oh yes it is language used to describe the judgement on Edom.

    Is. 34: 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fade away, as the leaf fadeth from off the vine, and as a fading leaf from the fig-tree.
    5 For my sword hath drunk its fill in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom , and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

    Problem is those tribes no longer exist and haven't for centuries .There is no one calling themselves a Jew today who can tell you which tribe they came out of. Your view of course assumes they even kept their bloodline pure. Those 144000 represent those of the 12 tribes who came into the New Covenant. They are the same Paul speaks of in Ephesians:

    1:13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.

    Perhaps the answer lies in the first part of the scripture which you deleted for some strange and unknown reason.

    Yes and you have a literal Lamb opening a literal scroll with your method of interpretation. Is it your point that revelation should be taken literal? If so, I will have fun playing this game with you.

    Yep, you either accept the word of God as it was intended or you overwrite it with Scofield or Lindsey, or Jack Van Impe, or John Hagee or the god of all dispies Darby.. et al.

    I agree. Read Revelation and let the OT symbols and imagery help you to interpret it, not the 20th and 21st century eyes of Scofield and Walvoord. Ask yourself the question, “how would those 1st century Jews to whom it was written understand it”.

    Revelation 1
    1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass ; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
    3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    Rev 22: 10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

    Good one Ed, [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  13. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    0
    "If in this life only we have hope, we are of all men most miserable."

    Read that Grasshopper, and really figure out what it means.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Grasshopper: //'Ask yourself the question, “how would those
    1st century Jews to whom it was written understand it”.//

    Consider this verse:

    Revelation 1:7 (HCSB):

    Look! He is coming with the clouds,
    and every eye will see Him,
    including those who pierced Him.
    And all the families of the earth
    will mourn over Him. This is certain. Amen.

    Every eye will see him - What did that mean to
    a 1st century Jew who knew nothing of
    international live TV?

    "All the families of the earth" - what did that
    mean to a 1st century Jew whose furtherst
    trip was 24 miles to Jerusalem to the temple?
    Probably mean all the families of the earth
    within 24 miles of Jerusalem.

    BTW, Jesus went up into a water cloud, the
    1st century (1-100AD) Jews who saw him asccend knew
    he would come back the same way he left:
    with the clouds. Those first century Jews
    had never seen a flight of Billions of
    of white robed persons on white horses
    (Revelation 19:14) -- from 100 miles away it
    will look just like a water cloud.

    So i'm not much intrerested in what the 1st
    century Jews though Jesus meant, i'm interested
    in what Jesus means for us today.
    (Though i'm sure it never hurts to do a little
    mental exercise from time to time to delay mental
    decay.)
     
  15. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    After I answered all your questions, is this all you have? Let me give you a hint: Preterist believe in heaven.

    Yea, Ed you rip scripture right out of the 1st century context and interpret it through 21st century eyes.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    All the guys
    in my Sunday School class that
    I minister to live in the 21st
    Century (2001-2100). All the people i
    minister to on-line live in the
    21st century (2001-2100). If God
    expands my ministry to 1st century folk
    then i'll be concerned how 1st century
    folk might have felt. Until then,
    i'm going to be practical in my religion
    and get out of the ivory towers some
    inhabit.

    Revelation is speaking frequently of
    Global events.
     
  17. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,147
    Likes Received:
    322
    And the people on that globe.

    Revelation 5
    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    HankD
     
  18. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    And the people of every tongue and nation heard the gospel by the mid sities AD as I had shown earlier.

    Col.1:6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world ( ko/smov ) bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

    Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation ( ktiðsiv )under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister

    Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations ( eáqnov ) unto obedience of faith:

    Romans 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth ( gh=), And their words unto the ends of the world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ).
     
  19. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Physically speaking, Have any of you considered the effect a rather localized earthquake in south asia had on "the nations". It caused a rather sizable tsunami that wiped out the lives of many thousands of people.

    Consider what a major quake in Jerusalem or Israel or along the Jordan river valley fault would do to "the nations". A number of scholars believe that Sodom and Gomorrah are now beneath the surface of the dead sea and were probably located on that fault. A major quake in that region would have a devistating effect on all of the Mediterranian area, and on most of the Arabian and egyptian territories to the south and east, not to mention Syria, Jordan, and the rest of the "nations" in the area. And yes, it could very likely split Jerusalem into three parts.

    Just taking a different view!
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Revelation 17-21 (HCSB):

    Then the seventh poured out his bowl into the air,
    and a loud voice came out of the sanctuary,
    from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
    18 There were lightnings, rumblings, and thunders.
    And a severe earthquake occurred
    like no other since man has been on the earth--so
    great was the quake.
    19 The great city split into three parts,
    and the cities of the nations fell.
    Babylon the Great was remembered in God's
    presence; He gave her the cup filled
    with the wine of His fierce anger.
    20 Every island fled, and the mountains disappeared.
    21 Enormous hailstones, each weighing
    about 100 pounds, fell from heaven on
    the people, and they blasphemed God for
    the plague of hail because that plague
    was extremely severe.

    Yes, all the islands of Israel dissappeared.
    Sorry, i believe that to be all the islands of all
    the whole world.
    "since man has been on the earth" sounds like
    all the whole world.

    Revelation it talking about the whole world unless
    otherwise noted. This statement will be true no
    matter how many times Grasshopper relists his
    4 scriptures.
     

Share This Page

Loading...