Robots in heaven?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Andy T., Aug 29, 2006.

  1. Andy T.

    Andy T.
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    One of the common misrepresentations against Calvinism is that is makes people "robots". God doesn't want robots in heaven! But as has been defended here many times over, C acknowledges that man is a free agent. Man has a will, but that will has been marred by the Fall, so that man does not want Christ in his sinful nature. Thus, it takes the effectual grace of God to regenerate (Brother Bob uses the term "recreate" which I kind of like - per II Cor. 5:17) in order to change the nature of man so that he wants to be saved.

    The non-C still claims that effectual grace makes us "robots", even though C's are clear that man has a will of his own (it's just not completely free in the libertarian sense). But I have a question for non-C's: We all agree that there will be no sin in heaven - we will all be perfect - so how does this not make us robots? I'm sure you will answer that God will give us glorified bodies and part of that will be receiving a whole new nature incapable of sin, right? If we will be incapable of sin, doesn't that make us robots? How dare God infringe upon our wills like that!

    Do you see the inconsistency here? Calvinism says that regeneration/effectual grace gives man a new nature so that he wants to be saved and is charged with making men robots. All Christians, including non-C's, say that God will give us a new nature in heaven so that we will not want to sin (i.e., incapable of sin) and yet no one screams that this is making men robots.

    So maybe it's time that non-C's drop the "robot" charge and start representing the other side honestly.
     
  2. npetreley

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    Yeah, that'll happen.
     
  3. Pipedude

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    Y'all first ! :D
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    I love that southern draw. :laugh: :laugh: :thumbs:

    17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Yea, but according to C, you didn't have anything to do with it.

    Do you think that is how God gets his Glory by picking one and letting the other go to hell?
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Aug 29, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2006
  5. Brother Jeremy Slone

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    In Philippians 2:12 Paul tells them to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
    Now mans fallen nature we see he loves the pleasure of this world and Romans 3:9-19 tells all of man kinds condition. So it takes something that is not in man. It takes the Faith of Jesus Christ I say and Faith is the fruit of the Spirit.
    back to Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
    So now those that were at the Philippian Church we see had a will (a want to) and a do (ability to perform things pertaining to their salvation) worked in them of God.

    But the change was within the man. his flesh still rest in hope of the change. He still has that fallen flesh to put into subjection of the inner man (christ in you if you will the new nature within the old nature)

    Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. :17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other.....

    So this is the conflict. the Choice these people deal with. To deny the flesh and follow the Spirit. Then understanding this we can look at Gal. 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption: ( right now in this time world) but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (To live is Christ) To walk in his ways is to live but to walk in the flesh is death in this world while we live in it.

    Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. :9 But ye are not in the flesh. but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (So if a man has not the Spirit then their is no conflict he just walks according to the course of his fallen nature but for us who are alive in Christ we are to reckon this old man dead.) .......BJS
     
    #5 Brother Jeremy Slone, Aug 29, 2006
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  6. webdog

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    ...as soon as you guys quit misrepresenting the fact we who do not hold to calvinism "save ourselves" or have something within us that merits salvation.
     
  7. Andy T.

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    Does anyone besides Jeremy Slone want to engage the issues presented in the OP?
     
  8. npetreley

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    If one claims to have made the right decision of one's own free will, then one has the right to claim at least some of the credit for being saved, since it was one's own free-will decision that was the hinge and pivot point of their salvation. I don't think it gets much simpler than that.
     
  9. Andy T.

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    You know, I shouldn't have to remind you that the right thing to do is to stop doing the wrong thing whether or not the other side is doing the right thing. That being said, maybe you could start a new topic with your defense of how both these things can be true:

    (a) Salvation is ultimately up to man (i.e., making a free will choice to accept Christ), and
    (b) Even though some accept Christ and others do not, there is nothing inherent (including the free will to choose wisely) within those that choose wisely and those who do not.

    Lastly, I will admit that C's have sometimes misrepresented the non-C position and accused them of "saving themselves." So there can be extremes when questioning this issue, but the question still remains: What is the inherent difference between those who choose wisely and those who do not?
     
    #9 Andy T., Aug 29, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2006
  10. Andy T.

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    Before this goes any further, I have requested that Webdog (or any other non-C for that matter) start a brand new topic to address this particular issue. Thanks.
     
  11. npetreley

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    I'll address it as soon as someone can explain to me why God is unjust unless He gives everyone, without exception, equal ability and opportunity to receive unmerited favor.
     
  12. npetreley

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    I honestly apologize for derailing your thread. Right or wrong, I see arguments like the one about robots as one of the last resorts of a person who has no scriptural or reasonable foundation for their belief system. I lump that argument in with "Calvinists say all babies go to hell", etc. If you can actually get anyone to recant their views on Calvinists and robots, more power to you. I just think anyone who has reached that point is beyond the point of reason. I hope you prove me wrong. In the meantime, I'll stop changing the subject.

     
  13. Brother Bob

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    Andy;
    A robot is controlled by someone and you all say yourselves that God does it all that you have no input whatsoever for your even getting to the Lord where Salvation is. That is why we say "robot".

    Now in Heaven, you think we talk about free-will here just wait until we get to Heaven. You talk about being free, we won't have no sin to hinder us, we won't have no sickness, troubles, tears to hinder us. We will be as free as the angels to worship and praise God forever according to our own "free-will". We will be heavenly creatures and doing heavenly things will be what our "will" is.

    No "robot" to that at all. We really don't think you all are "robots". We just think you are confused about what you are that when you get to Heaven then you will know for sure how "free" you really are.

    You see we are not too worried about the Calvinists for you still preach for men to repent even though you don't believe they can. You still preach that Jeus is the Saviour of the World even though you believe only the elect will make it. So, you preach a good sermon, its just you don't think all can take heed to it. :)
     
  14. Andy T.

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    Bob, will we be unable to sin in heaven?
     
  15. Andy T.

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    No problem - I was responding more to the "I'll start doing the right thing as soon as you start doing the right thing" attitude.

    Nick, there is always hope. :)
     
  16. Blammo

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    I will drop the "Robot" argument. Most calvinists don't seem to take their theology to that point.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    There are, however, some calvinists who's arguments would lead you to conclude that they could be nothing more than robots. (No "robots" on this thread so far)
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    Andy;
    You disappoint me to ask such a question. I am not even going to answer it.
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    I have never seen anyone anywhere say Calvinists say ALL babies to to hell!! That is a false statement meant to sow discord.
     
  19. Andy T.

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    Bob, just trying to show you that because you believe (as we all do) that we will be unable to sin in heaven does not make us robots, any less than C's who believe natural man is unwilling to accept Christ does not make men out to be robots either.
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    But not this side of heaven.
     

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