Romans 13, Do Americans have to submit to the president?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by poncho, May 14, 2004.

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Romans 13, Do Americans have to submit to the president?

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  1. poncho

    poncho
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    Are Americans to submit to the president according to Romans 13 1-7? Yes-No?

    What are some of your views on this subject?
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Yes, at least Christians are as long he is acting in accordance with the rest of the government.
     
  3. poncho

    poncho
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  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    "The powers that be are ordained of God." If I choose to violate the law on the basis of Scripture, then the government has the right to punish me, just like Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah.
     
  5. menageriekeeper

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    Cause Romans 7:1 says to.

    Now if the president was working against the good of the country then we should boot him out as provided for in the law of our land. Impeachment is provided for there.
     
  6. poncho

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    With our unique constitutional form of government we the people have delegated powers to the government. Through a constituion which limits it's (governments) power. We are sovereign over the government.

    "Sovereign: Having supreme rank, power and authority...Supreme and independent power...indisputable...being above all others...having dominion, power, authority...rightful status of independence and preogative...greatest in degree.

    (Websters Dictionary)


    We are our governments masters...not the other way around.

    We have no other but God over us, therefore we must only submit to God's laws, and God's laws only.
     
  7. menageriekeeper

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    Good try, but in delegating those powers we have also made ourselves subject to them.
     
  8. Johnv

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    The POTUS powers are extremely limited, and he onyl has 1/3 of the power of the government. Laws that are enacted by the President are approved by us (via our representatives) and affirmed by the courts. Many who oppose, say, a certain bill signed by the Pres don't understand that the bill was approved by the people's representatives, as well as approved by the courts. Except for executive orders, which typically don't affect us individually, POTUS has no power over the people which is not authorized by the people (congress) and the constitution (courts).
     
  9. LadyEagle

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    Jesus, Himself, the King of Kings, when He was here walking among men subjected Himself to the governing power of Jerusalem of that day, Rome.

    Jesus said we are to "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's."
     
  10. Johnv

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    I agree with LadyEagle. I don't see why anyone would think differently.
     
  11. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I agree with both of you!?!?!?

    What is this board coming to?
     
  12. Johnv

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  13. GrannyGumbo

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    If the prez was obeying God, then yes, but he's not.
     
  14. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Caesar didn't obey God and Jesus submitted to his authority.
     
  15. poncho

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    Caesar was not delegated his power from the people either. He grabbed it. We on the otherhand have a whole different set of rules for our government.

    In Rome at that time in history, Caeser was the sovereign ruler, here in this country today, we are the sovreign rulers...not the government that is delegated it's powers only through the constitution by consent of the sovereign people
     
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    ...there is no power but of God. The powers that be, in Rome and in Washington, are ordained of God.

    American citizens have the right this Novemeber to choose their leaders, once they are there they must be obeyed.
     
  17. Bartholomew

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    But poncho, you have never delegated powers to anyone, because you never had powers in the first place. You weren't the one who seized power from the "powers that were" at the American revolution - you weren't even alive at the time! You were just born as a baby who, later in life, had the right to vote your governers in and out. You are not the "higher powers". How can you say "we are the sovreign rulers"??? You are so blatantly not! If all decisions were taken by all the population, and each individual had exactly the same amount of power as anyone else then of course your statement would be true. But it isn't. The only power you have is a vote. The "higher powers" are just that.

    But even if it is true in theory that you have the same power as the president, in practice you obviously do not. When Paul wrote this passage, Rome still had an elected Senate. But did that stop Paul submitting to the emperor??? Did Jesus say we should protest when a Roman soldier compels us to walk a mile??? Christianity isn't about our rights. Look again at the life of Jesus.

    1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
    2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation
    .
    3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
    4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
    5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
    6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
    7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    It's pretty clear to me...
     
  18. Matt Black

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    So are you advocating unswerving obedience? What if the EU employment directives were interpreted by English and Welsh courts or Parliament enacted equal opportunites legislation to force churches to employ gays and Muslims as ministers (as very nearly happened last year)? Would you and your church blindly go along with it?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    Yes, Christians are to be in submission to authorities so that ignorant men will be silenced in their claims against Christians.

    1 Peter 2:13-15 13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

    Paul told believers to submit to a hostile, pagan government.

    Acts gives the only caveat, that of the government requiring something that would require disobedience to God. If the government forced a church to hire a gay, that would be in violation of Scripture and "we must obey God rather than men."

    Apart from that, we are to obey government because they are the ministers of God and are ordained by God. This really is a simple question, folks.
     
  20. JeffM

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    But Jesus lived under a different form of government than we do.

    In America, there is no Caesar. We have a representatve republic where the people are sovereign and the government is the servant. The founders set up our government (a republic, not a democracy) so each citizen is a king among kings, sovereign among sovereigns, with rights from the Creator himself. These rights are inalienable, which means no man or entity has a right to take them away.

    If we are to obey every law or person unconditionally, then there should be no court system because we would render ourselves not responsible for anything.

    Were the Nazi's innocent for "just following orders" when they murdered millions of Jews? Did they have a responsibility to say no...I won't murder an innocent human being? If Romans 13 means unconditional obedience, then yes, those Nazi's could not be held accountable.

    The Bible has several examples of Godly men disobeying civil authority and were spared horrible deaths by the Lord himself.

    Right now, several American soldiers are being charged for crimes against humanity when they tortured and humiliated Iraqi POWS. What is their defense?

    "We were just following orders". Sorry, doesn't cut it in my book and I have a feeling it won't hold up at their Court Martial either.

    I was taught that Romans 13 is only applicable if the government is a righteous and Godly government. Such a government would not do works of evil and force its citizens to obey laws that are works of evil.

    I think peaceful disobedience is neccessary sometimes to force a government back on track. As Americans, we are also to use our justice system and voting system to make neccessary changes first.

    I for one will publically declare that I will not follow unGodly laws. I am a human being created by a loving God who gave us the gift of free will. With this gift comes certain responsibility. God makes it very clear that there are consequences for our actions. Part of this gift is the ability of rejecting or accepting the loving gift of salvation. We have a choice in the matter and I know God is not going to listen to excuses of those who refused that gift as they stand before him awaiting their judgement.

    I can hear it now "Lord, my government told me I couldn't accept you as my Savior and they made it illegal to pray or read the Bible".

    What would God say to an unsaved person with that excuse?
     

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