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Romans 13, Do Americans have to submit to the president?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by poncho, May 14, 2004.

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Romans 13, Do Americans have to submit to the president?

  1. Yes

    32 vote(s)
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  2. No

    0 vote(s)
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  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    You were taught wrong. The government Paul was writing about was neither righteous nor godly, yet he said to submit to it. When you are forced by government to disobey God, then you may disobey government. Until then, as a believer, you are bound to obey the authority because they are ordained by God. In the American way, you are not sovereign. You are governed by the laws of this land, just as every other inhabitant is.

    Can you think of any laws that believers are required to obey that compromise thier obedience to God?
     
    #21 Pastor Larry, May 14, 2004
  2. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Our constituional form of government is not like any other the world has ever known or ever to likely see again.

    Yes...I say render unto to Caeser but who is Caeser here, in America at this time? We the people, or our ( public servants )?


    It is simply a matter of sovereign power.


    (Websters Dictionary)


    "They (the makers of the constitution) conferred as against the government, the right to be left alone-the most comprehencive of rights and the right most valued by civilized man"

    (supreme court justice Louis D. Braneis 1928)


    "Under our form of government, the legislature is not supreme, It is only one of the organs of the absolute SOVEREINGTY which resides in the whole body of THE PEOPLE; like other bodies of government: it can only exercise such powers as it have been delegated to it, and when it steps beyond that boundary, it,s acts...are utterly VOID"

    (Billings v Hall, 7 ca. 1)


    "In the United states, SOVEREIGNTY resides in THE PEOPLE who act through the oragans established by the constitution. The congress as the instrumentalilty of SOVEREIGNTY is endowed with certain powers to be exerted on behalf of THE PEOPLE as have been delegated in the manner and with the effect the constitution ordains. The congress cannot invoke the SOVEREIGN power of THE PEOPLE to overide their will as thus declared"

    (Perry v. United states. 294 u.s. 330 353 1935)


    "There is no such thing as the power of inherent SOVEREIGNTY in the governmentof the United states. In this country SOVEREIGNTY resides in THE PEOPLE; and congress can exercise no power which they (THE SOVEREIGN PEOPLE) have not entrusted to it: All else is witheld"

    (Julliard v Greenman, 110 u.s. 421)


    "Such is the condition of power in that quarter of the world (Europe), where it is too commonly accuired by force or fraud, or both, and seldom by compact. In America, however, the case is wildely different our government is founded opon compact. SOVEREIGNTY is, in THE PEOPLE."

    (Glass v The Sloop Betsy, 3 Dall 6 1794)


    "SOVEREIGNTY itself is, of course, not subject to law, for it is the auther and source of law; but in our system, while SOVEREIGN powers are delegated to the agencies of government. SOVERIGNTY itself remains with THE PEOPLE, by whom and for whom all government exits and acts. And the law is this the issue of jurisdiction as it relates to SOVEREIGNTY is a major key to understanding our system under our constitution"

    (The Omnibus, Addendum II, page II)


    It is just a simple matter of sovereignty. We the people are the rulers by law and decree in this country at this time in history.


    Our founding fathers grew up and understood the laws of God and the nature of man very well. They grew up under an unbearable yoke set on them from governments...they distrusted government because they knew that in time all governments made of men would seek more power and turn to tyranny.

    They did not wish this for America. Therefore they formed a compact, a constitution between SOVEREIGN PEOPLE in which to delegated very limited powers of which the government was unable to usurp.

    In other words they formed "Knowingly" a government BY THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE AND OF THE PEOPLE. By compact (constitution) they declared THE PEOPLE SOVEREIGN.


    They "knowingly" set chains about the government by the constitution there by making it subservient to the will of THE PEOPLE.

    We the people are the only sovereign power in this country. The only power above us is God. It was set up this knowingly by our founders.

    We the people are "the powers" of Romans 13.
     
    #22 poncho, May 14, 2004
  3. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    You were taught wrong. The government Paul was writing about was neither righteous nor godly, yet he said to submit to it. When you are forced by government to disobey God, then you may disobey government. Until then, as a believer, you are bound to obey the authority because they are ordained by God. In the American way, you are not sovereign. You are governed by the laws of this land, just as every other inhabitant is.

    Can you think of any laws that believers are required to obey that compromise thier obedience to God?     </font>[/QUOTE]Pastor Larry, I believe we might have had this discussion before. God gave us three institutions, the home, the state and the the church. All three have "ordained powers" to use the words of Rom. 13. I'd like to see you be consistent. Your advise and pattern doesn't wash.
    Thanks ----Bart
     
    #23 Bartimaeus, May 14, 2004
  4. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    Poncho,

    That bit about us being sovereign sounds all good and would make a good movie, but it has no basis in reality. We have a process to elect our leaders, we also have a process to remove them from office. Biblically, we are required to submit to the government that is set over us. If they are immoral or illegal, we can stand against them according to our beliefs, but we must be willing to pay the price. That is how the 1st century believer's did it. To submit does not mean we agree with them, but recognize their place. But we are not sovereign, that is an unrealistic dream.

    Bro Tony
     
    #24 Bro Tony, May 14, 2004
  5. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE][​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #25 LadyEagle, May 14, 2004
  6. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Okay, then if we flip to the other side of the coin....

    I don't have to pay taxes because my tax dollars are not being spent where I want them to be spent - in fact, some are financing Planned Parenthood which murders unborn babies. Besides, many of our elected officials are ungodly.

    I don't have to obey speed limits or wear seat belts because the government doesn't have the right to legislate against stupidity.

    There, that's final! (until the IRS confiscates everything we own and the nice patrolman hauls me off to the pokey)

    When we don't render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's, there is anarchy.

    God was the first Governor in the Garden of Eden. He gave the first Law's and "Thou Shalt Not Eat" was one of them. We all know what happened next...
     
    #26 LadyEagle, May 14, 2004
  7. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    Lady Eagle, Just remember the greatest form of an anarchist is a government that runs in opposition to God's Word.
    Another thought is that often times Ceasar forgets that "he" has a limited jurisdiction. Ceasar has NO RIGHT to the things that belong to God, and...if I may say one more thing....our average everyday run of the mill muzzled price bought and sold out preachers don't have the guts to tell Ceasar to get back in his own court.
    Thanks ---------Bart
    (that pertains to about 90% of the preachers on this board)
     
    #27 Bartimaeus, May 14, 2004
  8. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    The idea of removing the authority given to the Federal government and returning it to the sovereign states has already been tried, now, if we try to push this, especially since the states are each so dependent upon federal monies, how long do you think it would last? Probably four or five days, a week tops.

    Who was the last to try this? Was it Shay in western Pennsylvania?

    I like your idea, but we are too far adrift with no paddle to get to where you are pointing, imho.

    Plus, a short review of the writings of Mr. Thomas Jefferson will reveal the degree of trust he put in the common American, what was the theme of the Federalist papers? Where in Common Sense can you find common man, except to arouse his support for a rag tag band of terrorists?

    Oh, yeah, where is Canisteo? :(

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #28 Frogman, May 14, 2004
  9. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I agree, so we should first realize that judgement begins in the House of God; figure out how to get a majority of Christians to quit buying into these soap opra tv preachers whose sermon runs almost fifteen minutes and the plea to go to the phone fills the time left so that the word of God can be heard preached instead of drowned out by the watered down versions of anybody's guess come as you are no strings attached church membership, and we might see a turn around in this land.

    Unfortunately, Islam has already proven that as a nation we collectively have ADD, and the Lord's Day each week proves we have incorporated 'hyper' activity because there are just so many things to do we just don't have time to sit and listen to a man of God expound the Holy Scripture, research shows that we lose our audience after fifteen minutes, why do you think Charismatic leaders are so spell binding? Buzz, Buzz, Buzz, words and catch phrases, sing-songy? Naw, ain't no body will listen to that heap, lessn yous Seminary trained you don't have a leg to stand on in the world centered arena of modern religionists.

    Ok, no pushing, I'm coming down offn' the box now. [​IMG]

    Brother Dallas, wondering how homeland security is gonna work when I can be sued or criminally charged just for defending the security of my home :confused:
     
    #29 Frogman, May 14, 2004
  10. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    My case here is not to debate what the Bible says. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God and it is 100% accurate. And we are to live in submision to God this is an absolute.


    It's in the founding fathers beliefs and the very unique way in which they founded our constitutional government. And my own faith in God.

    Has any one ever heard "God works in strange ways"? Strange to us maybe, but not to God!

    Or "ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"?

    What a strange thing our country and it's constitution is...the only (really) "free" nation on this earth ever and for over two hundred years. Can any other boast of an impossible feat like this? Given the history of the world and governments, the nature of man and the nature of God?

    One nation under God, In God we trust...

    I'm not saying God stepped in to make this country great and free because the founders knew the truth, but given the historical facts and the knowledge of the founders and faith in our most awesome God...I dare not discount it either.

    All would agree that God keeps His promises though, right?


    A word from George Washington.

    "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is force"


    These men were not just some simpltons that fell off the cabbage truck. Their belief in God and liberty was without doubt.(most of them)

    Most of them probably learned to read their first words from the bible. Even Thomas Jefferson read the bible, he may not of believed in it but he knew it and believed in a creator and that mans right came from that creator.

    Some of his better known thoughts.

    here

    He believed that mans rights did not come from men...that would be fairly "self evident"

    "let us hear no more of confidence in man, but let us keep them (men in government) from mischief by binding them down by the chains of a constitution"...Thomas Jefferson.


    "If the jury feels the law is unjust, we recognize the undisputed power of the jury to aquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by a judge, and contray to the evidence...and the courts must abide by that decision"

    (US v Maylon, 4th Circuit Court of appeals 417 F. 2d at 1006 1969)

    This power...more power than the vote.


    Who is the master here? We the people or our public servants? The government is in submission to we the people and we the people must be in submission to God for all this to keep working.

    If not all of us the the mojority. Christians are still the majority aren't we? Agreed we won't be for long.
     
    #30 poncho, May 14, 2004
  11. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    poncho, thank you for starting this thread.

    We need to think about these things and ponder them as Christians and Americans, even if we don't always agree. Especially as we see our country slipping away into the hands of the ungodly who want to destroy our nation. It is certainly going downhill. [​IMG]
     
    #31 LadyEagle, May 14, 2004
  12. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Ladyeagle, I love my God, I love Jesus, I love my country and i will not go out without a fight!
     
    #32 poncho, May 14, 2004
  13. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Freedom comes only from God almighty.
     
    #33 poncho, May 14, 2004
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I don't recall ever having this discussion with you before, and I don't think you remember it since you are accusing me of being inconsistent. I am very consistent on this point. I always have been.

    As for this notion that we are the government, that doesn't even make sense. We elect the government to be sure; but we elect them; we are not them.

    This is a place where Scripture speaks very clearly and there is no room for discussion about it. I have yet to see one law in this country that requires disobedience to God. Anyone want to offer one?
     
    #34 Pastor Larry, May 14, 2004
  15. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Ladyeagle wrote


    God is our creator all law comes from God that is His priviledge. He is the master, that we must obey.

    I can see the motion happening here Eve was the first to disobey...yes? Then Adam...the fall..God's curse...then his promise.

    Then his answer...Jesus Christ the lamb of God to die for the sins for all those wretched, unworthy, unclean , people like myself that truely deserve the flame and the darkness...but praise to Jesus I will not feel it or see the darkness.

    Because.


    God keeps His promises...what a wonderful loving God we have.


    To Him be the glory for ever and ever.
     
    #35 poncho, May 14, 2004
  16. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Pastor Larry wrote


    You have yet to see one maybe because you haven't been looking in the right places?


    Heres one with instructions


    Would you rather obey all that is in this law or this one?


    Exodus 20:2-20:17


    I'll take Gods laws anyday when compared with tyranny.

    Thats my choice.
     
    #36 poncho, May 15, 2004
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I did not read it all, but didn't see anything there that requires me to disobey God. So my challenge stands. Which laws in this country require disobedience to God?

    As for Exodus 20, that was Israel's Law. It is not ours. There are some timeless laws in there, but we obey them, not becuase they are there, but because they are timeless.
     
    #37 Pastor Larry, May 15, 2004
  18. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Nope. In that case we must choose to "obey God rather than man" because their is a clear Biblical injunction.

    Shadrac, Mishak, and Abednego did not obey the order to bow down to the idol and their were punished by the government for disobedience. They did not protest or picket, they just obeyed God. In your scenario we could well expect the state to close our churches and we would be forced to go back undeground.
     
    #38 NaasPreacher (C4K), May 15, 2004
  19. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Agreed Poncho, but the people express their sovereignty by choosing leaders. We express that every few years. Once we have exercised that sovereignty by who we choose we give them the authority to make decisions and we must live with the consequences of our choice until the next election.
     
    #39 NaasPreacher (C4K), May 15, 2004
  20. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    So, your saying that we the people have no sovereignty over our public servants after the vote is over?

    Ever hear of the phone, email, marching around in peace and hanging on to a sign, or even snail mail?

    You know, I have seen public servants do "180" after a big dose of our real honest to God ernest rightly and legally applied "sovereignty"!

    This is the power we have over them...it's just that today people make excuses to not do their duty to God and this country and get out there work...isn't that so GrannyGumbo?

    That and sadly they refuse to believe Gods promises and grab big heartfuls of that courage that God has promised to have already given us...it's lack of faith brother and thats the real shame here.

    Our God and constitutional government still work...it's we that don't.

    Why don't we? Could it be that we just don't hear the real power of the living God preached load and long and hard anymore?

    We have the soverneignty by compact,we have the law on our side, we have God promises of strenth and courage that would wash all this away in no time.

    Polish up the mustard seeds and lets git to it already!

    We're already free brother we just won't except that fact.

    Last I checked there is over 8,000 souls on this board...where are the voices? Where is love of God? Where is the love of country?

    Why are we just sitting here tappin on this stupid computers?
     
    #40 poncho, May 15, 2004
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