Romans 8:28-30

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Mar 27, 2011.

  1. convicted1

    convicted1
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    The title of this thread was supposed to be Romans 8:28-30, can a mod correct this for me??

    Disclaimer for my DoG Brethern; I am directing this question towards my FW Brethern, but feel free to join in. The reason why I am directing it this way is because I know y'all will disagree with this analysis, but I don't know if my FW Brethern will agree or disagree with this. I am not 100% dogmatic about this, but the more I study this out, the more I "lean" this way!!


    Rom. 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Now, here's where it gets "sticky". The more I read this in light of other scriptures, this is what I am coming up with. Notice that in all this, Paul states that whom He forknew, He conformed to the image of His Son. Nowhere does Paul write He "was not going to confrom some to the image of His Son"; meaning that God didn't "unelect" certain individuals. What I am trying to get at is this: I can not find anywhere where "predestination" was directed to "doomed" individuals that would HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE HE DID NOT CHOOSE THEM FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

    Now, lets take a look at this text in John Chapter 6:

    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Now, Jesus was talking to unbelieving Jew here. If you take a very close look at the text of this passage, I truly believe that Jesus is talking about those who "come unto me", while He was here on earth. Meaning that the Jews had their eyes blinded and their hearing dulled by God, so that Jesus would be the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!" So, in essence(sp?), Jesus was talking of those who would come to Him, as those who were there at the same time Jesus was, and not something that would be carried over in the same way as He did here on earth.

    Here is a passage to back this up:

    John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    Now here in John 12, Jesus states that "if I be lifted up", He will draw all men. He is talking about after He is to be slain, that this will take place. In John 4, He states that all the Father gives Him, will come unto Him. So, I can see a contrast in the way He is talking. Only certain ones could come to Him at that time, because if all the Jews would have believed He was the Messiah, they would not have crucified Him. After His death, burial, and resurrection, He is now drawing all men unto Him, but not all will come.

    The "marrow" of the point I am trying to make is this; I truly believe that when God predestinated someone/anyone, it was for good, and not predestination for something bad. I believe the Disciples, Paul, Moses and Aaron, all the major and minor prophets, etc, were predestinated to accomplish His will.

    In Romans 8:28-30, it does not state that He predestinated the "others" to be conformed to the image of Satan. To make that "bible jump", is unbiblical. God chose us IN CHRIST and not apart from Christ. I know this may come off confusing to some, so if y'all need any clarification, let me know, I will try to make it clearer. Please accept my apology for the way this is worded. What I type, and what I actually want to type, are all too often different. It's hard to put things in word correctly through a keyboard.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis

    Boy, I may need to go into the "witness protection program" now!! GULP!! LOL
     
    #1 convicted1, Mar 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2011
  2. ReformedBaptist

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    I put this in a previous thread. Make sense?
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    Willis,

    :thumbs::thumbs: Just keep coming to the light .
     
  4. Van

    Van
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    Reply to Convicted1

    Lets go over your analysis of the passage.

    What is the big idea of verse 28? If a person has been called according to His purpose, then we know they loved God before they were called. Does "called" refer to hearing and understanding the gospel, or does "called" refer to those whose faith God credited as righteousness? I believe the second alternative view is correct. Thus God credits the faith of those who love God.

    Verse 29:

    For whom He did foreknow.... Who is being referred to? Those individuals who have been called, in the sense they have been called out of the realm of darkness and transferred into the Kingdom of God.

    When did God foreknow them. When in the past did He have knowledge of them. I think this refers to before the foundation of the world, God corporately elected the target group of His redemption plan when He individually chose Christ to be His Lamb. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. And the Redeemer was chosen before creation, 1 Peter 1:19-20.

    Logic dictates then that He predestined whom He foreknew at the same time, before the foundation of the world. Now for what purpose were those who would be redeemed predestined? They were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Thus anyone redeemed by the chosen redeemer would be conformed after being redeemed to the image of Christ.

    Now here is where a time shift occurs. Those He predestined He also called. Again this is in the sense of being called out from the realm of darkness and transferred into the Kingdom of God. So becoming one of the "called" occurs during our physical life

    Now when God transfers us individually into "Christ" we are justified. We receive the justification provided by the sacrifice of Christ.

    And finally, those whom He justified, He also glorified. We have not yet been raised up in glorified bodies yet, so to what does this refer? We have been raised up spiritually, we have become spiritual children of God because we are spiritually in Christ, and since Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, we too have been glorified in that spiritually we have been raised up together with Christ.

    So those whom He foreknew refers to individuals who have been placed into Christ and redeemed, and thus have joined the corporately elected target group, thus He chose us in Him [corporately] before the foundation of the world.

    You are spot on, when your analysis concludes this does not say nor suggest that anyone was predestined to hell, but it seems to escape your analysis that this passage does not say anyone was predestined to heaven either.

    Turning now to John 6:37 and following:

    Verse 37, all that the Father gives to me.... That means 100% of those given come to Christ. This refers to God spiritually placing an individual in Christ. Note that those who "come" arrive in Christ because Christ does not say I will not let them enter, He says He will not cast them out. So this fits with God spiritually putting a person whose faith He has credited as righteousness into Christ.

    Note in verse 39, which you highlighted in bold, that it skips the coming and arriving part and simply says those the Father gives me, I will lose none and raise them up on the last day. So the "coming" does not refer to any volitional choice on our part, that happened prior to becoming one of the called.

    Now verse 40 goes back to being called with the gospel, then receiving the gospel, then putting our wholehearted faith in the gospel, and then God crediting that worthless faith as righteousness.

    Finally we get to verse 44 which says no one can come to me, referring to no one will be placed in Me by the Father, unless first the Father draws Him. Scripture says God draws, used metaphorically, with lovingkindness such that we love Him because He first loved us. So we hear the gospel, trust in Christ, and God credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ.

    Last point if a person "sees" verse 44, Christ high and lifted up, John 12:32, they will be drawn, i.e attracted by Christ's love for them such that He laid down His life for them. Thus again you are "spot on" when you write: "He is now drawing all men [who see Him] unto Him, but not all will come. This time "come" does refer to our choice to accept or reject the call of the gospel.

    God Bless
     
  5. convicted1

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    Reply to Van

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Brother Van, I think that when Jesus is talking here at this moment, He was talking of those that were there at that point in time, and not including us after He arose that third and appointed morning. Look at the woman with the issue of blood, blind Bartimaeus, the man with the withered hand, the man they dropped down through the ceiling, etc. I believe it was those individuals that Jesus was talking about "shall come unto Me". They knew who He was because their eyes hadn't been blinded by God.

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Contrast this statement I bolded with verse 44.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. I think right here proves my case. Jesus was talking of those who "come unto me", as those who were on earth at the same time He was, and was not talking about us who were to come later. And FTR, we have not seen Jesus, the Son of God, so those that "seeth the Son" had to be those with Him at the same time here on earth.

    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Same statement that was made in verse 39. My DoG Brethern hold this passage as proof that God only elected some, and those who are elected will come. You can not take this as Jesus talking about the future, but He was talking in the "now" sense. I do believe that we are drawn to God first, but I also believe you can chose to reject the calling. They hold this as "proof" that the elect will come, and this will not support their case concerning the matter, IMHO.


    Now the reasons why Caiaphas(sp?) and Annas, and the other unbelieving Jews couldn't believe was because they had their eyes blinded and their ears dulled of hearing by God. After Jesus died, their eyes were opened, and they could hear with their ears. The centurion stated, "Truly, this was the Son of God". So I believe his eyes were opened thisquick AFTER Jesus died. Why? If they would have known that Jesus was/is the Messiah, they would not have crucified Him, and therefore, the scriptures would not have been fulfilled.

    Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Brother Van, the point I am trying to make is that in all of this predestination, I can not find where anyone was "doomed for hell", from the foundation of the world. I believe that people such as Moses and Aaron, Joshua, Jeremiah, the twelve Disciples, Paul, etc, were predestined by God, but in this, it was a "good thing", and not a "bad thing"....meaning I don't think anyone is created by God, and presdestined for hell. Sure, God knew where I was headed when He made me, but He knew that by "foreknowledge", and not by "making me for hell". Does this clear things up any??

    i am I AM'S!!

    Willis

    P.S. I can't believe I went to John 6 and Romans 8 to refute "predestination"!! I may need to go into the "witness protection program after this"!! GULP!!! LOL :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:??????
     
    #5 convicted1, Mar 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2011
  6. Van

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    "John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Brother Van, I think that when Jesus is talking here at this moment, He was talking of those that were there at that point in time, and not including us after He arose that third and appointed morning. Look at the woman with the issue of blood, blind Bartimaeus, the man with the withered hand, the man they dropped down through the ceiling, etc. I believe it was those individuals that Jesus was talking about "shall come unto Me". They knew who He was because their eyes hadn't been blinded by God."


    Basically you see "come unto me" in verse 37, rather than come to Me. Thus the idea, in your view, is people choosing to come, after they have been given by the Father. But since everyone given by the Father comes, 100%, it looks like it is a done deal with no volition allowed.

    Second, deciding whether something is applicable only to the audience at hand, or whether it also presents a timeless principle applicable to us in the here and now does open us up to the possiblity of error. Let's leave it that I believe these words are applicable to us.

    Verse 40 still leaves out the need of coming, it simply says anyone the Father gives Me is saved forever.

    Your idea of limiting the application to only those who physically saw Jesus in the flesh, suggests folks cannot believe in His name and be saved. Note that other translations put it "looks to the Son, looks on the Son, beholds the Son" and so I think my trusting in what I have learned about Jesus from God's word means that I have "seen the Son" in the intended sense.

    Our difference is not that I think God predestined all the lost to Hell, both of us agree He did not, our difference is you seem to believe God predestined some before the foundation of the world to heaven. I say no scripture says or suggests that happened.

    Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the Lamb of God. And so He was to be God's Redeemer. When God chose the Word to be the Redeemer, He also chose us in Him - anyone spiritually placed in Christ - not individually but corporately, all those who would be redeemed based on God crediting their faith in the Redeemer as righteousness. Thus our individual election for salvation is through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
     
  7. StefanM

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    1) God doesn't "unelect" anyone. The default state is condemnation. God's election pertains to those chosen out of this default state.

    2) They do not go to hell because they were not elect. They go to hell because they were sinners.

    3) While our supralapsarian friends would disagree, election to salvation is active but damnation is passive. God passes over the non-elect, leaving them to the fate that was already in place for them.
     
  8. jbh28

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    Agreed...

    Every month I have a power bill to pay. Why do I have a power bill to pay? Because I used power in my house. Now, why don't I blame you? I could say that I have a power bill to pay because StefanM didn't pay my bill for me. Now, if you had of paid, then I wouldn't have to. But the fact that you didn't pay doesn't change the primary cause of me having to pay a bill.

    Sinners deserve hell. God not electing someone doesn't negate the primary cause of people deserving hell.
     
  9. Van

    Van
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    What we all deserve in the afterlife is perfect justice. The more we sinned, the more we are punished. If you do not receive mercy by grace through faith, then you are condemned already. God promises two things for those who are taken to Hades and then to the Great White Throne, and then to the Lake of Fire in Gehenna. One, you will be tormented justly for the sins you committed, and two, you will be punished forever and ever in eternal darkness. Folks, I suggest you do your best to avoid the punishment in Hell, it lasts a long time and you will be in agony.
     
  10. J.D.

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    Dont' sell yourself short. It seems clear enough what you are saying.

    You are saying that the elect are predestined to be saved, but the non-elect are not predestined at all. Right? It's an oldy but a goody - whether or not predestination is "double".
     
  11. percho

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    You are correct it only speaks of those predestined for a particular purpose. Someone, other than God, at sometime determined that if you were not predestined for this which they thought was heaven then you are predestined for hell.

    These predestined in verse 23 are spoken of as those that have the fristfruit of the spirit.

    And as in verse 29 when at the coming of the Lord and our then being conformed to his image see 1 Cor. 15:45-54 he, Jesus at that moment is called the firstborn of many for we are at that moment in his image implies we are born as he was, that is from the dead.

    To put first before a word implies there will be others later. The firstfruits of the spirit are those of the feast of firstfruits (Pentecost) a spring harvest but there is a larger harvest in the fall yet to come.
     
  12. Van

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    You raise a point, Percho, that has crossed my mind as well. Does being conformed refer to the progressive sanctification described by Paul during our walk with Christ as a new creation, or does it simply refer to us when we are raised in glorified bodies. Does anyone have a link that evaluates these options with well supported assertions?
     
  13. percho

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    Speaking of Jesus the Christ.
    NKJV Rev. 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead,(His resurrection) and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed [fn] us from our sins in His own blood,
    Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,(The beginning of what?) the firstborn from the dead;(His resurrection) that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

    To my knowledge Jesus is the only of this kind so far that has been resurrected from the dead. Called here firstborn from/of the dead.

    So far Jesus is not only the firstborn in this manner he is the only one born from the dead.

    Rom. 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who (Adam in the garden of Eden) is the figure of him that was to come.John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The Word who was God and was with God was made flesh in the figure of the first man Adam that is a living soul. And died I might add.
    1 Cor 15:45,46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;(So was the word made flesh) the last Adam (The resurrected Jesus) [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward (After what, the resurrection) that which is spiritual. v-47 The first man Adam in Gen.) [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man (Jesus the man) [is] the Lord from heaven. V-49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    who is the beginning, (see ? above) A new kind of man by being born from the dead. The first Adam was made mortal for death and corruption yet man who is made in the image of the last Adam (Jesus) he will be immortal and incorruptible.
    His (Jesus) mortal living soul was not left in hell (the place of the dead) and he did not see corruption because God raised him from the dead after three days and three nights.

    The last Adam will be the firstborn of many brethren.
     
    #13 percho, Mar 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2011
  14. Van

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    Thanks, Percho, top notch work!

    Van
     
  15. convicted1

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    Brother, what I meant by the "unelect", is those that in the Calvinist model of salvation, its those who God chose not to choose. I guess that was a rather poor choice of words on my part.

    I agree with this statement. However, in the Calvinist model, they were never afforded the opportunity to come to Christ, and that is not so. Jesus stated, "If I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me." So I'll take His word on it!! :thumbs:

    Here is something that I think can not be proven with scripture. In the Calvinist model, it takes the assumption that if God conforms some to the image of the Son, then some must not be. Again, prove to me, with scripture that God, in essence, makes some conformed to the image of satan. That is the only other alternative; it's either Jesus or satan.

    Let's take a closer look at Romans 8:29. Now mind you, I am no Greek scholar, and all I have to use for this is Thayer's, so please be patient with me.

    Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Now, here is the Greek word for "foreknow": proginōskō G4267

    Thayer's:

    1) to have knowledge before hand

    2) to foreknow

    a) of those whom God elected to salvation

    3) to predestinate

    Now, I know that predestinate is one possible application of this word, but Paul uses a different word for predestinate in this same sentence, so I think that "foreknow" is the correct word used here.

    Greek word used for "predestinate": proorizō G4309

    Thayer's:

    1) to predetermine, decide beforehand

    2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

    3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

    This word used for predestinate is the only possible application for this word, so it is correct.

    In essence, whom God foreknew, He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now, here is a question. Who has God not "foreknown" at anytime(please don't take this statement in the "universalist" sense). He has known all of us. Nowhere does this state that some were condemned from eternity past. I can not find any scripture to support this assumption. I don't even think it can be found where God passed over some and left them in their sinful state, without first coming to them and showing them the lost condition.

    Here is a passage I was reading from yesterday evening:

    Jer. 42: 7 And it came to pass after ten days, that the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah.

    8 Then called he Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces which were with him, and all the people from the least even to the greatest,

    9 And said unto them, Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, unto whom ye sent me to present your supplication before him;

    10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

    11 Be not afraid of the king of Babylon, of whom ye are afraid; be not afraid of him, saith the LORD: for I am with you to save you, and to deliver you from his hand.

    12 And I will shew mercies unto you, that he may have mercy upon you, and cause you to return to your own land.

    13 But if ye say, We will not dwell in this land, neither obey the voice of the LORD your God,

    14 Saying, No; but we will go into the land of Egypt, where we shall see no war, nor hear the sound of the trumpet, nor have hunger of bread; and there will we dwell:

    15 And now therefore hear the word of the LORD, ye remnant of Judah; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; If ye wholly set your faces to enter into Egypt, and go to sojourn there;

    16 Then it shall come to pass, that the sword, which ye feared, shall overtake you there in the land of Egypt, and the famine, whereof ye were afraid, shall follow close after you there in Egypt; and there ye shall die.

    17 So shall it be with all the men that set their faces to go into Egypt to sojourn there; they shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: and none of them shall remain or escape from the evil that I will bring upon them.

    18 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As mine anger and my fury hath been poured forth upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem; so shall my fury be poured forth upon you, when ye shall enter into Egypt: and ye shall be an execration, and an astonishment, and a curse, and a reproach; and ye shall see this place no more.

    19 The LORD hath said concerning you, O ye remnant of Judah; Go ye not into Egypt: know certainly that I have admonished you this day.

    20 For ye dissembled in your hearts, when ye sent me unto the LORD your God, saying, Pray for us unto the LORD our God; and according unto all that the LORD our God shall say, so declare unto us, and we will do it.

    21 And now I have this day declared it to you; but ye have not obeyed the voice of the LORD your God, nor any thing for the which he hath sent me unto you.

    22 Now therefore know certainly that ye shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence, in the place whither ye desire to go and to sojourn.


    Look at this!! God spoke to the remnant of Judah, and told them, through Jeremiah, what He would do if they obeyed His voice, and what He would do if they didn't. They chose not to obey Him, and look at what happened to them. They had a choice to make, and they made the wrong choice!! That's just like us today. When God calls us and tells us what we need to do(live for Him), we have that same decision to make. Choose to serve or disobey Him. But, in all of this, we were never "passed over"(none of us will be), and left to die in our sins and go to the lake of fire without ever being truly offered salvation.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #15 convicted1, Mar 31, 2011
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  16. Tom Butler

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    The sentence I want to address is the last one.

    Is it your position that every person without exception has heard the gospel? That every person without exception has been offered salvation?

    Do you believe that every person on earth at this moment has heard the
    gospel and been offered salvation?

    If you do believe the answers are yes, would you explain how that happened?
     
  17. convicted1

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    This is the point I am failing to get across, Bro. Tom, and for that, I am sorry. The gospel is more than just the "gospel message", but is God's power unto salvation, per Romans 1:16. When God comes to someone through the Holy Spirit, that is THE Gospel being presented to them. The "gospel message" also comes from God through a preacher, and to hear that message, we have to hear with our "natural ears". When God speaks to us, we hear with the "spiritual ears" that are in the inner man, our soul/spirit. It communes with God, or rather, God communes with it(the soul/spirit) because it came directly from Him. Our natural man came from the ground that God cursed, and will never be able to commune with God, until He changes it into the most glorious body likened unto Jesus' most glorious body. So I do think that God will come to all that have born and came to "know to do good and doeth not, and to him is sin". Here are some scriptures to support my belief:

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    Rom. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.+

    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    John 12: 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    Tit. 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    I hope this helps. No, I am not a "universalist, but I do think that those who die and go to hell, did have a chance for heaven before dying. They just refused Him, when He called.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #17 convicted1, Apr 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2011
  18. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
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    Tom, the answer is yes. How? Through creation, through the drawing of the Holy Spirit that Christ promised, though any manner you can think of and some we can't, all men are commanded to believe, therefore there must be some God appointed way for men to accomplish that command.


    Willis, I don't have time to quote but two points I want to make from what you have written:

    1) Don't forget that scripture often has multiple applications, so while you may be correct in thinking that Jesus was speaking to the Jews of the time, it may also be correct to apply those scriptures to ourselves.

    2) Somewhere, you asked how we become "conformed to Satan". We are conformed to Satan by default. Adam was made in God's image, but when he disobeyed, he lost all of his spiritual God image and became like Satan. All of after start from that default "child of Satan" position. (even so, God provided a way for reconciliation and an ability to believe if we only will)
     
  19. Tom Butler

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    Willis, I agree with you in part here, but for a different reason.

    You, and many others, believe that someway, somehow, everybody has been exposed to the gospel. You have proposed the way you think that happened, through the work of the Holy Spirit.

    I, too, believe that they are without excuse, for two reasons. One, they have the evidence of a Creator from the creation, and turned their back on that evidence. But they cannot be held to account for rejecting Jesus Christ, of whom they have never heard.

    I simply think the evidence is that there are many who have never heard the gospel or of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, Paul would not have had to go on his missionary journeys. Remember, in Athens, when he preached in the marketplace, the philosophers said this was new stuff, and invited him to come to Mars Hill to hear more about this Jesus and the resurrection.

    So how can they be condemned? From Romans 1 and 2, I take that they are "a law unto themselves." That is, they have a moral code of some kind, but cannot even live up to their own code. That will be the basis of judgment against them. And they will acknowledge that the judgment is just.

    That's my take. We agree on the result, but not the way we get to the result.
     
    #19 Tom Butler, Apr 1, 2011
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  20. Skandelon

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    Van and Convicted1,

    I just read through this thread and wanted to chime in on this point. While I agree with Van in principle, I must take issue with this particular point. The historical context is essential in understanding the intent of the author. While I think ALL SCRIPTURE is applicable to us and "timeless" in that manner, I disagree with the assertion that what is true of the Jews at that time in history is true of all humanity from birth.

    The Jews, Jesus' audience in John 6, is being judicially hardened, or blinded from the gospel's truth (John 12:39-41). They weren't born that way, they grew hardened/calloused over a period of time in rebellion to God's revelation.

    Those from Israel that the "father gave to the son" is most likely in reference to the 12 apostles which he goes on to specifically address later in the chapter...remember the only ones who don't abandon him? This idea is supported when you read John 17 and see how Jesus speaks of his handpicked apostles.

    See, the GOSPEL is means God has chosen to draw/invite/appeal mankind to Himself for reconciliation. That GOSPEL is being hidden during this time and it is ONLY after Christ is lifted up that he sends the gospel to "every creature" thus "drawing all men to Himself." Until that time God has hardened Israel except for the few he selected and gave to the Son to be trained to be the messengers of this gospel to the rest of the world.
     

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