Romans 9:10-18

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rusty61, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. Rusty61

    Rusty61
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    Hi Peeps;

    I am wondering if somebody would answer me a question. I have been taught to believe about election and I quite accept it. But what I'm having trouble with is the verse I quoted in the title. I'd like to know how does a person know if he is loved or hated by God? In other words it clearly says that before the twins were born, before they did good or evil, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated". So, Esau rejected God in his life, no denying that. But isn't that because God first hated him? Also, Pharoah is mentioned here and here too it says that God hardened his heart.

    So, other than a "feeling" because feelings are fickle. How do I know if God loves me like Jacob or he Hates me like Esau? :confused:
     
  2. PastorGreg

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    The answer may be debatable on certain levels, but one thing is definite - If you're saved, you know He loves you.
     
  3. npetreley

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    Exactly......

     
  4. Steven2006

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    This is an explanation from J. Vernon McGee On verse 9:13:



     
  5. russell55

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    I agree. If you believe, then you can know you are a child of promise like Jacob was.

    Remember, while God is free to express his mercy according to his own purposes and according to his own plan (The "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy" part), it is also true that those who genuinely seek his mercy always find it. God is always merciful to the truly repentent. If we confess, he faithfully forgives. It would not be correct to think that God is obligated to forgive us because we repent, and we certainly don't want to presume upon his mercy; however, we can still bank on our genuine repentence being met with his willing and abundant mercy.
     
  6. Amy.G

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    Do you care if God loves you or not? Does it bother you to sin against Him? Do you desire to please Him? Do you love Him?
    If you answered yes to all of these, then you have the love of God in you. You love Him because He first loved you.
     
  7. reformedbeliever

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    Added to these fine responses is this. Jesus told Nicodemus that unless you are born again, you can not see the kingdom of God. He went on to say unless you are born again, you can not enter into the kingdom of God.
    One of the signs of being born again is to have your eyes opened, enlightened, to the truth of Holy Scripture. If God's Word is no longer your enemy, but now your friend, then that is a great indicator of your being endwelled with His Holy Spirit.
    Let me ask you. Do you thirst for His Word? Do you need it like a thirsty man needs a drink of water? Has God given you an overwelming desire for His truth? As you get closer to God, does your conviction of sin and your realization of His Holiness, make you want to fall on your face and say "Woe is me."
    If you have answered yes to these questions, I would venture a pretty good guess that you have His Holy Spirit.
     
  8. webdog

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    In context, that verse is speaking of nations...not individuals (Romans 9 - 11 is dealing with Israel). God sovereignly elected Israel as His people. He could have very well chosen the line of Esau, but He didn't. Notice verse 28 below. The use of "loved" means favored. Jacob I loved, Esau I hated is showing one being held higher than the other, not one having the absencs of love. The Bible clearly teaches that God so loved the WORLD.

    Gen 25:23 And the LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger."
    Gen 25:24 When her days to give birth were completed, behold, there were twins in her womb.
    Gen 25:25 The first came out red, all his body like a hairy cloak, so they called his name Esau.
    Gen 25:26 Afterward his brother came out with his hand holding Esau's heel, so his name was called Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them.
    Gen 25:27 When the boys grew up, Esau was a skillful hunter, a man of the field, while Jacob was a quiet man, dwelling in tents.
    Gen 25:28 Isaac loved Esau because he ate of his game, but Rebekah loved Jacob.
     
  9. pops

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    Romans 9

    Rusty the above answers to your question are some of the best you could expect to find.
    Somethings are a mystery to us someday maybe we will know all the answers but until then ...maybe we accept it and work it out in our own minds you know you don't have to resolve all the worlds marvels and equations.
     
  10. Rusty61

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    Ok, thank you everybody. I do believe I am saved in the sense that I answer yes to all your questions. I have been saved for a long time, over 25 years. I read the Bible every day, well not the whole Bible, I mean, I read from the Bible every day. LOL. And I want to make God happy. But that's my problem. I feel like I cannot make God happy. I really feel like He has to hate me because of everything that I have done. See, most of what I've done as an adult I was supposedly a Christian cuz' I got saved at 19 y/o. So, does that mean I was or was not a Christian those times I went astray? I've been pentecostal most of my Christian life. It's only been about 4-5 years that I changed and the reason I changed is because I was having such a hard time I literally read hundreds & hundreds of Charles Spurgeon sermons, plus I read the entire three books of The Treasury of David, which is Spurgeon's expository on the Psalms.After all this I knew I had to leave the pentecostal church. I wasn't being fed meat and I wanted a church that would feed me meat. That would challenge me. Make me come home and want to look up what was said for myself. And I have all that now. But I feel worse now than I ever did. I feel like He just can't love me.

    Please don't get angry with me. I hope I'm not blaspheming. I'm just trying to explain to you what is going on. This is why in my OP I said I can't trust my feelings. Because I know what the Bible says, I know what I've been taught. But I just feel so rotten. I don't see how God can love me. Does that make sense to anybody? I'm sorry, I'm not trying to cause anything, I just am trying to understand what is going on.

    And no, I am not living in sin. Yes, I do sin, but I don't have anything like living with somebody or doing drugs or alcohol or anything like that. As a matter of fact I am disabled so I don't really have the opportunity to do much except read and study. I have been studying the Reformation and I think that is where I'm getting into this trouble. I don't think I'm understanding what I'm learning.

    So, my religious background goes like this, I was raised Roman Catholic, I got saved and went to mostly Pentecostal churches, then I switched to the Baptist church. So maybe I have too much garbage in my head. I don't know.

    I hope I'm making sense. But I've been looking for an answer now for a while and it seems to me I just have to finally spit it out and say it all instead of trying to hide certain things. Because this is really eating me alive. I am scared if you want the truth. I really am. I"m scared.

    Sorry if I said too much. Please forgive me. And if I blasphemed I'm sorry cuz' I do not mean to do that.

    Rusty
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    Rom 8:21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Rom 8:22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    Rom 8:23And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

    Not too many on this board agree with me on this, but the inward man, the soul and spirit is what has been "born again" and has the knowledge of witness with God's Spirit that he is a child of God. There is the outward man which consists of the body, which has a carnal mind and has not received its deliverance yet, but will receive it in the resurrection, and that is where the doubt you have from time to time rests. That is why the souls groans within, waiting for the redemption of the body. In other words the body has not been redeem as of yet and is where the "hope" is.
    I hope for that which I have not seen and with patience wait for it.

    If when you are in the Spirit, you know you are saved, then you have nothing to worry about for God will deliver the body "also", in the resurrection.

    BBob,
     
  12. reformedbeliever

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    I have to hurry. I was on my way to a football game and had to stop by the house. This is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier post to you. The closer we get to God, the more we know Him through His Word and Spirit, the more we feel rotten about who we are. What you are experiencing is natural and IMO should be. It is like Isaiah in Chapter 6. Read chapter 6. When Isaiah saw the pre-incarnate Christ high and lifted up.... when he saw His glory... he fell on his face and said "Woe is me"...
    The closer we get, the more we know, the more of His glory that is revealed to us... should have this effect upon us. Our sin and filthiness should be more evident, our righteousness like filty rags.
    What you are experiencing my brother, I think, is a realization of who God is. You are becoming more aquainted with Him.
     
  13. russell55

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    1. In a sense, this is a good thing, even though it's painful. You are aware that underneath it all, you are unworthy of God's love, and that's a good thing, because it's the truth. This sort of awareness is a sign of God's spirit at work in you.

    2. It is Christ's work that counts in your salvation, not your own. His work is perfect, meaning that your sins are all forgiven in his death, and his perfectly lived life is counted as your own. God looks at you and sees Christ's righteousness, and not your own. That's why Paul can say that no one can condemn those God has justified. Those who are justified are clothed in Christ's righteousness, and that's an absolutely perfect righteousness. When you turn inward, and you see the feebleness of your own faith (and we all have feeble faith), you are looking in the wrong direction. It is not your feeble faith that is written on your account, but Christ's perfect work. Look there. His work is perfect. He is completely trustworthy even when you aren't. Center your studies and reflections on the completeness of Christ's work.

    Christ's work is the centerpoint of all of God's work, and it should be the center of study for all of us.The pure unadulterated gospel, which is really all about the good news of what Christ has done, isn't just the truth by which we enter into a right relationship with God, but it's also the key to solving the spiritual problem we have as believers. His work is perfect. He is trustworthy. Focus on him.
     
    #13 russell55, Nov 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2007
  14. Brother Bob

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    2Cr 4:16¶For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.

    2Cr 4:17For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;

    2Cr 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.

    When Jesus said one of you shall betray me, every apostle said "Lord is it I". If the could doubt outwardly, then so can I. We do not doubt God ever, but in the flesh, we do doubt ourselves sometimes. I believe if every man would be completely truthful, he would admit that there have been times in his/her life that they had doubts in themselves. The thorn in the flesh that Paul had, guess what it is. He wanted to be perfect in this life and that is not to be. Almost everyone will say we sin, but yet the sin of doubting, they say we don't do. I say, yes we do doubt from time to time ourselves.




    I don't feel worse the closer I get to God. I feel better, for I know my redemption draweth nigh. I recently ask God to let me die while having my second open heart surgery because of this outward man suffering so much pain, for to die in Christ is gain.

    BBob,
     
    #14 Brother Bob, Nov 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2007
  15. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Rusty,
    It seems like you are struggling with the idea that you have been forgiven. You feel that God might hate you like Esau because of the things you 've done.
    But if you've truly sought forgiveness and repented of your sin, then you need to work on remembering, not your sins, but God's forgiveness and mercy.
    Perhaps the accuser, Satan is tempting you to think that God hates you b/c of your sin.
    If that's the case, you need to resist the temptation to doubt God's word and trust in His forgiveness.
    Our sins from the past do often plague us.
    But they don't plague God.

    He forgives freely and competely.
    Anything less is a lie from Satan.

    I will be praying for you.

    Psalm 103 is a great passage for us to meditate on when thinking of our sin and God's forgiveness.

    "The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. He will not always accuse, nor will He harbor His anger forever; he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities." --vs.8-10
     
  16. TCGreek

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  17. Brother Bob

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    TC; it seems to me that he agrees with me about Israel. I quickly read it, but seems to me he is saying the promise of the covenant has already come to Israel? I could be wrong.

    BBob,
     
  18. TCGreek

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    He considers himself postmil, but read the following from a sermon of his:

    "The salvation of Israel is not just a possibility but a certainty. God has given the promise, and God has called Israel for his own, and Paul says in verse 29, “The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” So let's read the promise in Romans 11:25-26, “Lest you [Gentiles] be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel [we saw that back in verse 7], until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, ‘The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.'”

    "Not: all Israel may be saved, but: all Israel will be saved. Not everyone agrees that “all Israel” refers to the nation as a whole alive in some future generation. Some take “all Israel” to refer to the true spiritual Israel including Jews and Gentiles. Others take it to refer to the remnant of believing ethnic Israel that is being saved all along through faith in Christ. Both of these views deny what I have been arguing for—that there will be a great and stupendous national conversion of Israel some day." http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2004/164_All_Israel_Will_Be_Saved/
     
  19. npetreley

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    I agree. The following is foretold as a future event when it is reiterated in Revelation:

    I believe that Israel as a nation (or even just the 144,000 marked) will recognize their Messiah when Jesus returns. That will be the first step in their salvation (pour on the house of David & Jerusalem the Spirit of grace).
     
  20. Brother Bob

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    I believe this.

    BBob,
     

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