Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Jun 22, 2013.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Why did God hate Esau?
A very good and profound question to ponder about the mind of the Lord. I am not an expert in translation, but I have an idea that hate has to do more with the Lord's choice than our present day definition of hate based on human emotion. Neither Jacob or Esau had done anything at the point of birth for the Lord to hate either. However, God chose Jacob to carry out His purpose of the Old Testement, to bring about the proper conditions for the birth of our Savior. Jacob became the line to Jesus Christ, and Esau's decendents would become the Edomites, a line that was not chosen to bring about the birth of Christ. It is all about Jesus, and has nothing to do with our present understanding of love and hate in a worldly sense.
Beyond that, there are just certain aspects of the mind of God we will never fully understand in this life. This is a good thread, and it will be interesting to see the responses of others.
The bible does state "who has known the mind of the Lord, and who can be His counsel?", so I always take this into account when studying, trying to get an idea of how He thinks. "His ways are above our ways", so none of us will ever really get "there" in regards to trying to figure out how He thinks. But things like this really "bug" me......not in a bad way, but a good way......things that cause me to really ponder on His Word.
Now, TBS, I have thoughts and ideas why, but no "iron clad" belief concerning it. Why I ask this is because of why, or better yet, when, did God hate Esau? Was it at conception? Sometime between conception and birth? Sometime after birth and before he forfeited his birthright? Or was it after he sold his birthright? Personally, I "think" it was after he sold his birthright, but He knew before He created Esau he would sell it, so who knows? Any thoughts? Ideas? Opinions? Brother SN, I know you're in Ky, so think slooooooooowwllllyyy............you might get a flat....
Probably that was prophetic and directed at Edom, the descendants of Essau, as much as at Essau himself. jmho.
It is consistent throughout the scriptures that it's actually the second born that obtains the favor of God, not the firstborn, i.e., Cain/Abel, Shem/Japheth, Ishmael/Isaac, Essau/Jacob, Leah/Rachel, Mannassah/Ephraim, First/Second Wilderness Generations, Saul/David, First Covenant/Second Covenant, First Man Adam/Second Adam (and doubtless many others):
It was not Cain's sacrifice that God had respect for, but it was Abel's; 'Cain was of the evil one, and slew his brother....Because his works were evil, and his brother`s righteous.' [1 Jn 3:12]
Shem was the elder brother of Japheth, but, 'God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem...' [Gen 10:21 ASV & 9:27]
It was Ishmael, the firstborn, that was born after the flesh, and he persecuted Isaac, the second born, that was born after the Spirit. Isaac was the child of promise; Ishmael was cast out. [Gal 4:29]
It was said of Esau and Jacob, 'The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' [Ro 9:12,13]
It was not Leah his first wife that Jacob loved, but it was Rachel his second wife. [Gen 29:30,31]
It was Ephraim the younger that Jacob blessed over his older brother Mannassah and in spite of Joseph's objections. [Gen 48:13-20]
It was not the first generation of the exodus that entered into the rest of the promised land, it was the second generation; 'But your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have rejected.' [Nu 14:31]
It was not Saul the first king of Israel that would do all of God's will, but it was the second king David that was a man after His heart; '...Saul the son of Kish...when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who shall do all My will.' [Acts 13:21,22]
It was not the first covenant of the law ( I desire mercy, and not sacrifice) that God had pleasure in, but it was the second covenant of grace; '....a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.' [Heb 8:6,7]
Consider 'the first man Adam' vs. 'the last Adam, ' ... that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.' [1 Cor 15:45-47]
I think the Edomites, failing to be the chosen line, founded West Virginia.
Very well thought out and articulated post, Brother Larry. The thing that sticks out the most to me is Jacob/Esau and Ishmael/Isaac. Both of these were types of the outer man(Esau and Ishmael) and the inner man(Jacob and Isaac). I think you're on the right path here, if not all over it! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Could be.....but remember, I am from Ky, and after I left, property values went down 15%.............
Hate is being used in order to establish a categorical distinction. Paul is using hyperbole so that the hearer will understand the stark contrast between God's positive election of His elect as opposed to those whom He does not elect. Hate is a strong, unyielding term. It is not ambivalent. Paul did not write, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have a felt wishy-washy".
That's no mystery. Esau was a stinker from conception.
No, the amazing thing is, how could he love Jacob?
I know not why God's wondrous grace
To me He hath made known,
Nor why, unworthy, God in love
Redeemed me for His own.
So, God hates His creation from conception?
[FONT="]Well, there’s “hate” as in “I hate brussel sprouts”. And there’s “hate” as in “I hate the pedophile who raped my child”.[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="]Neither one of those is the “hate” that God felt towards Esau. God blessed Esau later.
This is just my opinion. The hatred towards Esau more matches the hate found in the following verses.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Luke 16:13 – “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]John 12:25 – “Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Luke 14:26 - “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.[/FONT]”
[FONT="]I think the word hate in these contexts means a disregard towards something. If you are trying to serve two masters, working double shifts to bring home a larger paycheck and carving out more time to increase you and your family’s time with God, - well, BOTH of those master’s won’t be served. One will be disregarded and eventually become despised.[/FONT]
[FONT="]If you want to serve God in this life and serve your flesh in this life – that won’t work. You must disregard the service of the flesh – or hate your own life. It doesn’t mean to hate yourself or walk around in a morose depression. It means to regard the exalting of Jesus as the reason for all that you do instead of glorifying yourself.[/FONT]
[FONT="]If you want to grow in your obedience to the Lord and your service to Him and your service to your family takes priority even over you’re taking care of your family, your discipleship is moot. Even your parents and children can unfortunately take priority over God sometimes.
[FONT="]God disregarded Esau when it came to the blessing of the covenant of his father. He chose Jacob. Why, I don't know. Jacob certainly did nothing to deserve it. God did NOT disregard Esau as far as general blessings go. He was a blessed man later in his life. Just not covenant-blessed.
[FONT="]Why did God disregard Esau, the first born, when giving the blessing of Abraham’s and Isaac’s covenant?[/FONT]
[FONT="]I don’t know. God doesn’t tell us why.[/FONT]
Here's the difference between a Calvinist and a noncalvinist.
The Calvinist sees that there is nothing remotely lovely in himself. Quite the opposite, he sees that he is a corrupt, repulsive stinking bag of worms—and that from the moment he is conceived. What's the difficulty in seeing that God hates one like that? The amazing and humbling thing is that God has mercy on some, and to be part of that is incomprehensibly wonderful.
The question should be, why did He love Jacob?
It's just the opposite for the noncalvinist. He thinks himself easy to love—well, at least easier to love than was Esau. So the fact that God loves him isn't so wonderful. After all, wasn't he wise and good enough to say "Yes," to God? So, the fact that God hated Esau, well, there must have been something especially loathsome about him. What could it have been?
You're close, but if he wasn't loved enough to be among the elect, might as well say he was hated.
I'd recommend a book: The Names of God in Holy Scripture, by Andrew Jukes.
Nothing more than pontificating intentional misconceptions and posturing your own self-serving spin. I don't know whey God LOVES me or you, but HE does and that is a fact. Perhaps it really is as simple as the scriptures say....
God is Love.
I keep seeing some say they do not know why God loves them as if it shows some sense of humility. It really comes across as fake to cover their own arrogance.
Thank you, Aaron. From you, I take that as a great compliment. :flower: :flower:
Also, as someone who didn't even know what C vs. A was until I was in my 40's and don't' consider myself in either camp, I do think of myself as that proverbial wretch or worm. I have no idea why God saved me. When I think about it, it makes me shudder to imagine the amount of mercy and love that God has upon his fallen creation.
And you are right. It is more unfathomable that God would love Jacob than disregard Esau.
If you are addressing me Rev, I will simply say that you read me incorrectly.
So why don't you tell us why God loves you ?
This topic is a deep one than is deeper than I can wade, seeing that I truly do not know how to swim..
I am just trying to figure out why He would have true hatred towards anyone, even from conception, seeing that the soul He made, and the physical body, He formed whilst in the womb. I may never truly understand this, but it's mindboggling to see Him have hatred towards someone who has done neither good nor bad.........