Romans Chapter 7

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SpiritualMadMan, May 8, 2006.

  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
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    OK... Let's try it this way.

    First the entire chapter:

    Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
    Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
    Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
    Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
    Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
    Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
    Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
    Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
    Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
    Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
    Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Then we can go through this verse by verse...
     
  2. SpiritualMadMan

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    Let's limit the amount of stuff we quote to save space...

    Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

    OK first question...

    What are the ramifications, based on the above scripture of being buried with Christ in Baptism?

    I understand Baptism as being an outward illustration of an Inward Spiritual Work namely that of symbolically dying with Christ...

    Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

    Of course later we can walk through Romans 6, as well...
     
  3. Claudia_T

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    you are married to yourself. You are married to your sinful self. You have to die to get out from under the law of sin and death...meaning that we sin and then are under condemnation, over and over the same round of sin and condemnation...

    then after you consent to die, you have to get married to Christ instead. This is the only way out of the whole thing because as long as you live, (your sinful self you are married to) you arent allowed to marry someone else... so you have to die.

    your old self dies. But you are still under the same law when married to Christ.

    A woman having a husband is bound to her husband so long as he is living. She is bound by the law. It is against the law for her to have two husbands at the same time; but if the first husband is dead, the same law will allow her to marry another man.

    But now we serve in newness of spirit, we no longer feel it a drugery to "try" to keep from sinning. We now love to do what God says, we want to please our "husband". We bring forth fruit now instead of this awful round of sin, death, sin, death... because we couldnt do the law before now.

    We are born again and the old man dies. We now walk in newness of life, loving to do what was once a terrible drugery that we couldnt accomplish before now.

    [ May 08, 2006, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    I think Romans 7 puts it very well. Says the Law is Good and the breaking of it is sin. Also that Jesus delivers us from the Law which is not saying the Law is not still around but that you are free because Jesus delivered you and you do not break those Commandments anymore by being born again in Christ. Never does it say, and I think is the problem in all of our discussions that it is done away with. Again if you will look at what I am going to say will explain it the way it is explained in Romans. If the State put up a "no drinking sign saying it is the law" I would be totally free from that law because I just don't use acohol at all, therefore I don't have to worry about that law, it means nothing to me, I am at liberty from that law which takes in the Scriptures concerning the Law". The same is true with the Ten Commandments when I accepted Jesus in my heart he came in and established His Laws in my heart and my mind. I could quote Scriptures to that fact. "I will put my Laws in their hearts and write them in their minds". So the same, I am free from that Law, I am at liberty from that Law, It has no bearing on my life whatsoever, why? because I don't do those things anymore. Now if someone who confesses that he is a Christian and then commits adultery I believe and I know some won't but I believe he was mistaken in believing he was a Christian in the first place, at least I hope so for the Scriptures says if a man were to taste of the good fruits of the Lord and if he were to fall to renew him unto repentance again is impossible. I hope I have made my self clear on how I believe for it is very easy to write down just not exactly what is in your heart. Sometimes we put in the wrong word and others get the wrong impression.
    Those who believe the Law was just OT will discount my belief and use Scriptures but mostly the will be for one of the other laws such as Sacrificial, Circumsion, Washing of the pots and pans as I call it (not to wear clothing of different material, stoning you wife and children etc.) Amen,

    BBob
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    No, there is a big differenc from the Law Covenant and the Law of Commandments.

    Law Covenant includes: Sacrificial, Circumsion and the Law of Commandments.

    The Law of Commandments were carried across Jordan in the Ark of Covenant by preist into the promised land and when the Savior came, He came preaching the Law of Commandments.
     
  6. gekko

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    i was going to start this... hehe. jk.

    true christians fall into sin. that's a given because there is none who dont sin. but Jesus.
    false christians die in their sin. this is because true reptentance hasn't taken place and they are still under the law of sin and death.

    bummer. i was going to add to this more but i had a mind block.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Although some people have tried to rewrite this spiritual principle into "the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as THE LAW lives" - however it is easy to see that in scripture it is never the “Law that dies” but the “person”.

    Romans 6 has already set the context telling us that we "were baptized into Christ's death" and that we have died to sin in the death of Christ our substitute. The substitutionary death of Christ FOR US (not FOR the LAW) means that WE benefit because WE DIE through OUR substitute. (The Law has no such substitute to die for IT).
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Next - Paul will provide an analogy - with real life situations where a married woman is widowed and then marries another person. Paul's intention is to show how the first covenant relationship is broken through death and allows for the woman to participate in another covenant. OF course IF Paul kept to his own SPIRITUAL principle - the WOMAN would die vicariously and then remarry. Something we never see in real life - so it is not used. The analogy breaks down at that point - BUT the concept of two covenants with the first one broken by death - REMAINS valid and is Paul's focus.

     
  9. BobRyan

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    #4. Here Paul re-emphasizes (for even the most stubborn of mind to notice) that it is YOU who died THROUGH the body of Christ. From the standpoint of the LAW a DEATH has occured and the FIRST covenant arrangement is broken.

    Then the New Covenant process writes that SAME LAW that was on tablets of stone (external) - onto the "tablets of the human heart" (2Cor 3), Heb 8.

    #5. The first covenant arrangement states "obey and live" - since ALL have sinned then by the first covenant arrangement - all deserve to go to hell - the second death.

    2Cor 3 - expands this contrast between the Letter as the first covenant and the Spirit as the New Covenant.. (that post is available upon request).

    The covenant of the "obey the law and live" conditions - binds us to the condemnation that God's perfect LAW (which defines sin) stipulates (the 2nd death). This is clearly
    not "a Gospel" in any form - for those who "have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Even though it is stated in the positive "Obey and live" it ends up
    have a condemning negative to those who turn out to be sinners (all of mankind).

    Paul gives us an Excellent reminder - SIN is STILL something for “God alone” to define and He did this with His Law. Specifically we see the “Law” being a quote from the Spoken Word of GOD Himself. The Ten Commandments!

    Paul does not hesitate to point out that the perfect example of God’s Law is a quote from the Ten Commandments!

    To understand this - real Phil 3:6 where Paul describe his spiritually dead state causing him to think that we was "found blameless".
    But when made spiritually alive - he realized the full scope of the law's demands and saw that he was condemned by it as FLAWED
    - a sinner condemned to death. As Paul points out in Romans 8:5-8 the carnal mind does not submit itself to God's perfect Law - it is
    not even able to do so.

    He makes the point that God's perfect LAW which should result in life as stated "obey and live" - ACTUALLY results in death for us
    until we enter the Romans 8:1-4 relationship with Christ - resulting in "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Notice - Paul CONTINUES - even now - to say that God's perfect LAW still IS Holy, righteous and GOOD.

    Here we see that the Law IS spiritual but the sinful nature of man is in bondage to sin. Bondage already fully discussed in Romans 6.

    Some have tried to rewrite this text as if God's perfect law IS NOT spiritual but carnal and once we become spiritual we dump that bad-ol'-law. Paul makes the OPPOSITE point here and in Romans 3:31 where he affirms that BY FAITH we "ESTABLISH the LAW".

    Paul says he “wants to obey” God’s Law and in fact “Agrees with it” saying that “it is GOOD”. He points out that only “sin IN him” argues against God’s Law.

    What a great contrast to those who boldly fight against God’s Law today insisting that they do NOT agree with it and daily deriding those who DO agree with it!

    When we compare this with the statement Paul makes in Romans 8:5-8 [ about the wicked, carnal, fleshly mind not being ABLE to even agree with God's Law much less submit to it - (for as 1Cor 2:14 says "spiritual things are spiritually discerned" there for the natural-carnal mind does not even "accept the things of the spirit).] - we see that Paul is AGREEING with the LAW - and so is transformed - a new creation, old things are passed away.

    First of all those who war against the Law of God – the Ten Commandments “do NOT joyfully concur with the Law of God”
    Second Paul identifies that part of humanity that seeks to wage war against the Law of God that is “Holy Just and good” - - he says it is the sinful nature that is waging war against God’s Law! How “instructive”.

    When it comes to his OWN testimony Paul points out that IN CHRIST - he has come to AGREE JOYFULLY with the perfect spiritual Law of God. Transformed in the "inner man". This is consistent with His statement that faith is to “establish the Law of God not abolish it” Rom 3:31.

    Again Paul makes the point - NOT ONLY JOYFULLY concurring with God's perfect Law - but in the inner man - in his mind - SERVING the perfect law of God. And then we find the first crisis for the new christian - what happens when the inner man IS transformed to AGREE with the SPIRITUAL, PERFECT LAW of God - and THEN finds the SINFUL nature at WAR with the "new creation"? Thankfully we have the WAR that is waged successfuly throughout our life- - by infinite God the Holy Spirit - as pointed out in Romans 8.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Short Romans 7 summary--

    1. the LAW LIVEs - continues to LIVE -
    2. Through the Gospel YOU DIE
    3. In the NEW creation you AGREE with the Law of God in the inner man but your sinful nature still hates it.

    So now lets watch how this plays out in the posts!
     
  12. Claudia_T

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    yes it is supposed to be US that dies in this entire process, and not the Law. And you dont die to self to be married to Christ ---only to go back to your old sinful ways again...

    Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Rom:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Rom:6:7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    Rom:6:8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

    Rom:6:9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

    Rom:6:11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
     
  13. SpiritualMadMan

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    So much for a slow verse by verse...

    I guess I shouldn't have gone to bed last nigh...

    But, with a 0300 rise and shine I really didn't have much choice...

    Oh well it would have been fun...
     
  14. SpiritualMadMan

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    If we accept the truth that The Law is Good...

    What does that say? Actually?

    Good for what?

    Does it being 'Good' make it legally binding to "dead men"?

    If it is good for instruction in Righteousness, as all Scripture is, then does "instruction" neccesarily equate to a legally binding rule?

    To having dominion over us?

    I am not saying that there are not acceptable standards of conduct by which we can be reasonably assured of correctly inspecting "Fruit"... [​IMG]

    What I am concerned with is getting on a slippery slope where we start adding to Basic Salvation...

    From what I have seen in churches where The Law is preached, keeping of the Law is indistinguishable from Salvation...

    And, I personally do not believe it is possible to stick with just the Ten Commandments...

    Just consider how much of Rabbinic Law was written to explain a few Commandments?

    We have the same problem with churches that espouse the Law today...

    They find it virtually impossible to stick to the basics of the Ten Commandments, continuously adding to them and explaining what they *really* mean...

    Consider, which of the Ten Commandment did Saphira and Annanias violate that elicited an immediate death sentence?

    I am not sure they violated the "letter" of any specific Ten Commandment...

    If I am right, then, it indicates that even the most Basic Eternal Law is inadequate to prevent sins unto to death...

    Only Grace can do that by Loving us into proper conduct...

    That's why, IMHO, the writer of Hebrews tells us that the New Covenant in Christ Jesus is vastly superior to (and supercedes) the Old Covenant...

    One of the reasons the New Covenant supercedes the Old, is because it accomplishes what the Old could never do... Bring life...

    And, in one sense it is a superset of the Old, containing all the needed provisions to accomplish God's Purposes in the Earth.

    But, I ramble...

    Mike Sr.
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    And fulfill the righteous of the Law.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Paul states in Romans 7 that God's Law defines sin.

    Paul states in Romans 3 that God's Law defines sin.

    IN Romans 7 Paul states that the new Creation - the New Birth nature - AGREES with the Law of God and WARS against the sinful nature (the deeds of the flesh) on that point.

    In Romans 8 Paul argues that ONLY those who by the Spirit are puting to DEATH the deeds of the flesh are even saved at all!

    In Romans 6 Paul argues that those who are enslaved to rebellion against God's Law (sin) are in fact lost!

    In 1John 2- JOHN ALSO says that those who walk in rebellin are lost no matter what they "claim"!

    In John 14:15 Christ Himself says "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

    And James 2 points out this same teaching to the point that we are to live and act as those who are to be JUDGED by the Law of God!

    Both Romans 7 AND James 2 QUOTE the WORDS of the Ten Commandments for those trying to escape them.

    By ignoring each of the "details" given in the verse-by-verse review of Romans 7 we "might" ignore all of this.

    Why not just accepts the details?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    If you have been borned again in Christ Jesus you should have no trouble with the Law still being Holy, Just and Good. I never have seen the problem, why do some insist on trying to do away with it, do they want to do some of those things or what? I don't have a problem with it at all.
     
  18. Claudia_T

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    When I first became a Christian I thought that all you had to do was "believe". But then I quickly noticed all the many Bible verses about keeping the commandments and I couldnt in good conscience ignore them.

    The way I figured it, is I would much rather just face up to the truth and then if there were things God wanted me to set aside, sinwise, I would allow Him to show me what they were and remove them.

    This would be a whole lot better than being dishonest with myself and trying to stick my head in the sand just hoping God would accept me though I was holding onto all my sins.


    Jn:3:20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    Jn:3:21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
     
  19. Claudia_T

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    I dont know how anybody could read this passage and come away with the idea that it is now ok to sin (transgress the law). The whole idea is that we are supposed to DIE TO SIN... and awake to righteousness. "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

    Like my mother used to say, "Do you want me to draw you a picture?"


    Romans 6:
    6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
    9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
    11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


    Can anybody repeat those last two verses outloud in their homes right now and come away thinking God is telling them it is ok to break the law now and return to sin?

    did you notice it says "whether of SIN UNTO DEATH"?

    In other words if we are going to choose to go back to our sins we are abiding in DEATH not eternal life.

    Romans 6:14: For sin shall not have dominion over you : for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    did you get that? because you are not under the law, that does NOT mean we can sin (sin is the trangression of the law)
     
  20. SpiritualMadMan

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    Where did anyone say it was OK to transgress the Law???

    That's quite a leap to go from saying that The Law has been set aside with a higher Law, a better law...

    To saying that some anyone is reading that it is OK to sin!!!!!!

    I love your quote, though:

    Romans 6:14: For sin shall not have dominion over you : for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    Which is exactly what I have been saying all along...

    I am speechless and incredulous at how anything I have said can be so twisted as to make anyone believe that I or anyone else is promoting willful sin...

    Please give a direct quote where I or anyone else promoted or is promoting willful sin.

    Mike Sr.

    BTW: One reading of Romans 6:14 would read that because you are not under Law, sin can now no longer have dominion over you as you rest in God's Grace...
     

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