Romans III

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 22, 2010.

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Is the Church today the New Israel?

Poll closed Oct 30, 2010.
  1. Yes

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  2. No

    76.0%
  1. th1bill

    th1bill
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    Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?
    Rom 3:2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God.

    Here is a reasonable question, then (in the first century) and now. The question is almost rhetorical in nature. There were then, just as there are now, Jewish Believers. Just as God had promised Abraham the Jewish Believer was meant to be a blessing from God to the whole world. Please do not jump the gun on my assertion about the Jewish Believers, most of you will, so, I'll explain. Being a Jew involves two different aspects of life;
    1.the nationality
    2.the religion.
    We are fortunate in more ways than one with our Jewish friends. The very first Christians were Jewish, the most notable of whom was Saul of Tarsus, later renamed Paul, Disciple of Jesus. In addition to these forerunners there are, today, Christian Rabbis and Jewish Christians seated in their churches. We have the good fortune of being able to ask them questions concerning the traditions and the feast days of celebration and learning from them.

    Rom 3:3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God?
    Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

    I read many postings, published on the Web and have encountered many individuals that claim to be the New Israel because they contend that God, the Father, has washed His hands of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but this is not, nor shall it ever be true. Folks are busy, today, building boxes to put God into and this is not only an exercise in futility, it heresy! No “man” is able to even understand God, let alone define the limits of God, there are no limits, god is inexhaustible! And for God to abandon the descendants of Jacob/Israel is for God to become a liar and that will never be! In Due. 7:9 we see that God promised to be faithful to His Chosen People for a thousand generations. If we use a conservative number, say 25 years, for a generation that is twenty-five thousand years. From studying the scriptures we find that the Earth will only stand for about seven thousand years before God burns it up and recreates it. For this reason it makes perfect sense to conclude that God meant forever. No matter that some, yes, even most turn away, god has always had a remnant.

    Rom 3:5 But if our righteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)
    Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

    We must always be careful when we read the Word of God and we need to cease redefining the terms that are clearly expressed and defined by example in the Bible. i.e. I am oft barked at for the lack of love in some of my messages and mt replies to other posters. I try to remember what I have learned in these years of guided study of the Bible. God loves everyone of the persons that He will individually judge and sentence to Eternity in the Lake of Fire. In like manor God made me an Evangelical Teacher and when I rebuke a person and suggest that they do a Spiritual inventory, it isn't because I hate or dislike them, it is out of love for them that I seek to keep them from digging that hole so deep that they will never climb out.

    Righteous Judgment feels and seems cruel, only, to the unstudied and the unwilling. We must be careful in this because we can fool people but you may rest assured that God not only sees and hears, He knows the real reason buried inside our hearts. The next time a person slings Matt. 7:1 at you, pull out your Bible and read the entire chapter or, even better, all of the Sermon on the Mount.

    Rom 3:7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
    Rom 3:8 and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.
    Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
    Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
    Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
    Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one:
    Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
    Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
    Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

    We must never forget the thrust of Chapter three, only God is righteous and for that reason we are commanded to put on the Full Armor of God. (Eph. 6:11-18 & Acts 17:11) If we are faithful to do this one thing until the day we transition over into Heaven, we will be found to be a faithful servant of God. By misreading, misteaching and misunderstanding it has become a popular concept to study until we know the Word and I tell you that this is not true. We are admonished to study, read, the Word of God as the Bereans did, daily! Today, I have been blessed with a computer and an Internet connection. When I can no longer see, should I live that long, I have two CDs of mp3 files that I have burned and can put them into my computer or CD Player and still hear the Word of God as others read it to me. We are, simply put, unable to live a holy life except that we, actively seek after the Holy Spirit.

    (a foot note: The truth of man is told by what he or she does when they are alone! What do I mean? When I google a topic there is no-one to watch me. If I search for a Bible reference I will receive the same results whether I use a lower case or an upper case letter in my search. Out of reverence for my LORD I always use the upper-case g when spelling God and I will type everything else, save Bible, in lower-case. Who cares, God does! Who's to know, God does1)

    Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
    Rom 3:20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
    Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

    Here, once more, we see the thrust of Chapter three expressed (v:10) in v:23. For a man that prefers the Roman Road method of guiding lost souls to the foot of the cross, these are fundamental passages (vss.10 & 23) to be built upon. We, everyone of us was born in and were, before our salvation experience, rooted in sin. As it is expressed here, it is important that we remember that we, the Church Body, are nothing more than a group of sinners, gathered together to lift up and to strengthen each other as God has forgiven us and wishes to forgive everyone.

    Rom 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    Rom 3:25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
    Rom 3:26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

    Propitiation... our atoning sacrifice. Jesus, the Son of God went to the cross He did not deserve, that I might be excused from the cross that I do, not did, deserve.

    Rom 3:27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.

    In Hebrews 11 we see that Abrahan had faith and that it was reckoned to him Justification, Imputed Righteousness.

    Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
    Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also:
    Rom 3:30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
    Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

    This last verse is most often ignored. Jesus, in the Gospel Accounts promised us that not a single stroke of the Law, a.k.a. Mosaic Law, would ever pas away and here we see that Paul is stressing the point that we, Christians, establish the Law. When I read through the Law, all six hundred and thirteen of them, I see the perfect word picture of the only True and Loving God.
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    And Paul resumes answering his own questions here in the ninth chapter:

    4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    Again, Paul answers in the ninth chapter:

    6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
    7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

    Take note of that last verse, “it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.” “Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ..... And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise” [Gal 3:16,29] The promises pertain to the Church of Christ, not to physical descendants of Abraham.

    You're kidding. Right?:

    6..........ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition.
    7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
    8 This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me.
    9 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men. Mt 15

    10 For there are many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision,
    14 not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. Titus 1

    2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
    3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

    We have the good fortune of having a real live prime time example, right now on this forum, of what their traditions did with the word of God :
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1602025#post1602025

    If I want to know anything about 'their traditions', I'll refer to Edersheim.

    It's the covenant that God has abandoned, not those individuals that He foreknew and redeemed:

    14 but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ. 2 Cor 3

    ..... Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever..... Mt 21:19

    21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
    22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
    23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
    24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18
     
  3. th1bill

    th1bill
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    Friend, there was never anyone saved by the Mosaic Covenant. And God never abandoned it, just as I pointed out in the OP. The Old Testament, a.k.a. Hebrew Covenant is just what I described it to be, a perfect illustration of The Perfect God. The Old Testament Saints, from Abraham until Jesus looked froward to the Messiah's coming, just as we look back to it today.

    And as for your, "Are you serious" question, Yes! We are admonished to study to show ourselves approved and each of the customs of the Ancient Believers holds information about the beauty and the character of our mutual LORD. You should note that I, neither in the OP nor in this reply went legalistic on or about the matter. The simple truth is that the more we know about God, the better able are we to serve Him.
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Friend, you've countered none of the scripture that I have presented with scripture.

    The Mosiac Covenant was 'added' [thus becoming a SHADOW of things to come]:

    19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; and it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator. Gal 3

    .....and then it was removed:

    26 whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven.
    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12

    ......and there's really nothing 'new' about any of the spiritual tenets of the the everlasting covenant. It's new only because He made the first old, and that the mysteries of it were not revealed until the time came for the seed to come, which was Christ:

    13 In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.
     
  5. th1bill

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    In 2Tim. 2:14-16 we find that arguing the Word of God to prove ourselves best is forbidden, just as all adventures in the arena of pride are. Now, there is an Iron-clad rule of Hermeneutics that mo scripture stands alone but must be viewed and understood in the light of all other scripture. By remembering and applying this one rule we submit our efforts to the will of the Holy Spirit and no longer need to war over what the scriptures say and how we are to apply.

    I, of all people, can certainly be wrong but I see a great deal of pride in your posts and I'm busy putting pride to rest in my Christian walk. If you will just pray for the Spirit to guide you're studies and submit to His will you will learn to ask instead of seeking to win a contest.
     
  6. kyredneck

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    If my confidence in what I believe comes across as pride, then so be it. And it's not trying to 'win a contest', it's called defending the truth. You're the one that's come on here throwing the 'heresy' word around, and you've failed miserably in backing up your claims.
     
  7. DixieBoy

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    Good post, th1bill. I believe we are the Israel of God.

    Is all Israel lost? No.

    As to studying the law it is a good thing. The only scripture they had in the NT church was the law and prophets.

    Did Paul teach Jewish Traditions?

    There's a lot we can learn from Christian Jews.

    My Opinions My Beliefs.
     
    #7 DixieBoy, Oct 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2010
  8. Iconoclast

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    16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise


    In Christ......there is one new man.

    11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

    18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

    19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

    22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


    King James Version (KJV)
     
  9. th1bill

    th1bill
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    I'm attempting to run through the book of Romans in an orderly manor, that many might come to understand that this letter of Paul's is actually the Christian Manifesto. If you have missed the previous lessons that is easily remedied by visiting my blog. I have tried to avoid being caustic but since you insist, Context neighbor, always context.

    You are misapplying these verses. Until you grasp the context these words from the netherland can mean anything... when in fact Paul was speaking og his Jewish ancestry, his brothers by birth. I'll get to chapter 9 in good time, if the LORD is willing but not now.
     
  10. th1bill

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    But in Eph. 1:5 and other verses throughout the New Testament we find that we have supplanted nobody but have rather been adopted into.
     
  11. webdog

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    Exactly. Our branches have been added in, they did not take the place of the natural branches.

    We have disagreed in the past on matters, but on this we are in full agreement. Maybe now you will not question my salvation :)
     
  12. Allan

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    If the church were Israel.. they why does scripture call us (the Church) the 'New Man'.
    That phrase refers to something different and distinct from what has come previously.
     
  13. DixieBoy

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    Hi Allan,
    I am new here so haven't figured the forum out yet. So, I don't know if this was directed to me or not. Please, forgive me if it wasn't but will answer.

    The 'Church' is a generic name for an assembly or group of people. Israel is also called the church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38.) The NT church or assembly was not to have partitions that separated Gentiles from Jews. Even women were kept behind partitions in the Jewish synagogues. Slaves had to remain outside. In the NT church everyone fellowshipped and worshiped together. They were all one new man or equal in Christ.

    As to being Isreal:

    The distinction is between Israel after the flesh, the mere natural posterity of Abraham, and Israelites who, through faith, are also Abraham's spiritual children. Gentiles who believe are also of Abraham's spiritual seed

    The term Israel can apply to both physical born and those that are made Israel by God's plan.

     
    #13 DixieBoy, Oct 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2010
  14. th1bill

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    webdog,
    If I have done that I beg your forgiveness, I am not qualified to judge that matter.
     
  15. webdog

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    Like it never happened :thumbs:
     
  16. kyredneck

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    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; Ro 11

    11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
    12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21

    Would you agree that these passages are synonymous, i.e., referring to the same event?
     
  17. kyredneck

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    .....It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3:7 YLT

    Was Christ implementing something 'new' here, or was He revealing a mystery from of old, i.e., something that had always been?
     
  18. kyredneck

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    In your opinion, what prompted Paul to ask this [very relevant] question?
     
  19. th1bill

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    Of, the utmost, importance to remember is that, neither your nor, my opinion matter! The Cardinal rule is that Scripture interprets Scripture. Men, some of them, are called to translate scripture but none have been called to interpret. How could they? God is without beginning and without end, is there such a man anywhere?

    Now, using this foundation to build on one must trash the concept of Paul's letters, this one included being books, they are letters. The chapters and verse notations were added much latter to make it easy for one to study them. So, reading the Letter to the Romans as a letter we find the cause for the question, located, in what we refer to as the second chapter.

    This question, being, what we know as a rhetorical question is preceded by the reason for it being asked, as was a common literary form of that day. Paul was making it clear that the circumcised (Hebrew) and the uncircumcised (Gentile) were equal in the view of God and that their positions were dependent upon, in this case, their following, or the lack thereof, of the Law.
     
  20. RAdam

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    At the end of chapter 2 Paul redefines what a Jew is. This is largely recognized, but mostly misunderstood. Paul does not redefine Gentile believers to be Jews or Israel. Rather, Paul states that a Jew is not one merely who is a natural Jew by descendency, but is a Jew whose heart God has changed. In other words, from chapter 3 onward, Jew and Israel are terms referring to God's people among the Jews. The proof is the fact that throughout the rest of the book of Romans Paul refers to both Jews and Gentiles in the same context, and even mentions that all Israel shall be saved, the same Israel that is blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
     

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