Sabbath Keeping Essential for Salvation?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by csw419, Jun 9, 2005.

  1. csw419

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    I guess this one is addressed to Bob Ryan. Bob, I have been reading many of your posts in this section and it seems we agree on much. We disagree on eternal security, but I do not accept this doctrine on a Calvinistic basis. I reject Calvinism as unscriptural for many if not most of the reasons you do. In fact, I personally know that there are hundreds of Baptist Churches (or more) that reject Calvinism on these same grounds. I’m not talking off the top of my hat either. I am a member of very influential (not bragging) Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, and we have a website (www.learnthebible.org) that gets thousands of visitors a day (check out the creation science section, it is mine). Because of this connectivity, and because I have a great deal of prior experience with Southern Baptist Churches (50 or so), I feel my statement is a reliable one. I don’t know what the percentages are, but my impression is that a majority of Baptists reject Calvinism. Of course I am referring to privately; publicly they virtually all reject it because it doesn’t fit with evangelism, as you so aptly point out. But my question to you is do you believe keeping the Sabbath is essential for salvation? I believe you have mentioned in places you do not accept White's teachings as being authoritative on the level with scripture (correct me if I am mistaken here). Is keeping the Sabbath essential for salvation in your view?
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    You may want to debate this (Sabbath keeping) in the "Other Christian Denominations" Section. (It seems to fit better with the topics there). Just a suggestion.
     
  3. csw419

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    I thought about that. But this does relate to the law keeping part that is associated with the arminian position. I'll let the mod's decide.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    FFF - it is good to talk with you. Welcome to the discussion. Thank you for sharing.

    ON OSAS I would argue that the 4 point Calvinist has the most logical, consistent "bullet-proof" argument for OSAS! Those who find errors in 4PT Calvinism do not have a good basis for OSAS though they may be right about the errors of 4 point Calvinists in my opinion.

    I agree with you there. The Calvinst camp has not won over the Baptists lock stock and barrel. The same can not be said for Prebyterians. They seem to have bought into it almost at the 100% level.

    No.

    But then I would not argue that Catholics are going to hell for breaking the 2nd commandment about idols in worship services. I still think it is wrong - but I believe many Catholic saints will be in heaven anyway.

    That is true.

    No.

    BTW the answers I have given here are mine - but they just so happen to agree perfectly with the SDA denomination's 27 Fundamental beliefs (doctrinal statements voted by the denomination in general assembly) -- so nothing radical here on my part.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. csw419

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    Thanks Bob for the succinct and to-the-point answers. I should have expected nothing less from you. It seems we do agree on much. There also seems to be a great deal of grace in your position. Perfect law keeping and works are evidently not a requirement in your perspective. I would also tend to agree that OSAS, as you term it, would be more readily defensible from a Calvinistic perspective. But given the choice between the two, Calvinism is so devoid of love and the heart of God, I would have to give more weight to rejecting it than standing for OSAS. This may sound strange to you, but I actually believe OSAS for the same reasons I reject Calvinism. I believe that scripture teaches that God has promised to give us a glorified body like Jesus that will be purpose built to not sin. I also believe that God’s offer of eternal salvation, once accepted, is a completed contract at the point when the new birth is granted. In a nutshell, this is why I believe OSAS. On our website we go into the issue a bit and address the problems texts commonly used to against this doctrine. All of our articles of this nature are under the Arminianism section at Cults and False Doctrine . If I get brave enough I might start a thread and we can go through it. You are a tough debator, so I may need to take a week off from work or something to even attempt it. [​IMG] See ya.
     
  6. icthus

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    Bob, you need to explain what you mean by you words:

    "But then I would not argue that Catholics are going to hell for breaking the 2nd commandment about idols in worship services. I still think it is wrong - but I believe many Catholic saints will be in heaven anyway"

    I hope you mean those Catholics who have rejected "Catholicism" and accept the Biblical teaching of Salvation by faith alone, through grace alone, and in Jesus Christ alone. Though I am not a Calvinist, I will nevertheless have to agree with their position on "Justification by faith alone", as this is the central plank for the heart of the Christian Message. The Church or Rome, still teaches that Mary was "Co-Redeemer" with Jesus Christ, a doctrine which is blasphemy, and has its origin in hell. There are many aspects in the Catholic Church that depart from sound Biblical teachings, as they place a great emphasis on a "works salvation".

    Only those Catholics who have been truly bron-again, like anybody else, can ever hope to make it to heaven.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    FFF - You are free to ask or PM anything you wish. The truth is - I don't bite and I am not offended if someone is not in 100% agreement with me. I doubt that any Arminian here would agree with me on all my doctrinal points of view.

    ON the other hand I have also posted along side of some Calvinists here when it comes to the errors of evolutionism.

    So it is all in good fun.

    I will go check out your weg site.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Icthus you are 100% correct that the ONE Gospel in all of time has only had "Saved by Grace through Faith in Christ our Savior, Substitute and Lord" -- no question about that.

    But I do not hold that Catholics are "not saved" until they get the same view of that that Martin Luther had when he saw the errors of Catholicism.

    I believe a person can be in doctrinal error (as were the disciples pre-cross on some points of doctrine about Christ) and still be filled with the Spirit, born-again saints (as the disciples were pre-cross).

    Pastor Larry may be able to attest to this - but if you go the "Other Denominations board" you will find that I am as critical of RC doctrine on Mariolotry, purgatory, praying to the dead etc as anyone.

    There is nothing lacking in my posting against it in detail -- "early and often" as they say.

    But that does not mean that I think that those who hold to those errors are lost by virtue of their denominational affiliation or erroneous views.

    I believe the Holy Spirit works on them (Drawing ALL to Christ and Convicting of Sin) as He does with everyone else. They are convicted of sin and repent like everybody else - but then when they go to God they also go to a priest and get some errors tossed out at them.

    In the end they must be born again JUST like the disciples PRE-Cross when they went to John the baptizer. EVEN though - like those disciples - their doctrinal view on a lot of subjects is questionable (in fact wrong).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. csw419

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    That's cool Bob. I didn't really have you pegged as a biter anyway. My primary ministry is creation science, so you may want to check out that section of our site. All of the works there are by me. I am also the president of the East Tennessee Creation Science Association (ETCSA). We have a ministry on the Univ. of TN campus. Here is the url: www.etcsa.org. The letter from the president on the homepage is by me no less. I'm sure you would have figured that one out without my help. [​IMG]
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Although you can not tell it from my posts on this section - the Creation evolution debate is one of my favorites. I think it is great that you are leading out in such a good field in East Tenn (My old stomping grounds).

    God bless and keep up the good work!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Since you brought up the subject of OSAS and the Arminian view - I am thinking about asking Arminians which of the two Calvinist solutions they take for the guy that gets saved today but then fails to persevere 10 years from today.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Faith Fact Feeling

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    It would be interesting to discuss the Aminian view in light of OSAS. There are certainly many OSAS Arminians out there. Most of the non-OSAS Arminians I speak with don’t believe that it is easy to loose it even if they think you can. So we may be closer on this issue than some think. The really big difference is Calvinism/Arminianism is God zapping people into being believers. I think once that issue is done away with we can more reasonably explore how God deals with those in saving relationship with Him. Good idea me thinks.
     
  13. johnp.

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  14. Sularis

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    Sabbath sabbath or just Sabbath?

    - are you referring to Saturday or Sunday depending on your viewpoint?

    - or are you referring to the concept of a Sabbath which could be any day? as long as its kept properly
     
  15. Faith Fact Feeling

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    Hey Sularis. Interesting name, where did you get it from?

    You correctly point out that there is more than one biblical sabbath, and that there are multiple issues surrounding saying you need to keep it. In this context I am asking about the seventh day sabbath in the ten commandments. Bob would contend (correct me if I’m wrong) that we still need to keep this one since it is one of the ten commandments, and moreover it is pre-law since it goes back to the Garden of Eden and the original creation. The common answer from someone like me involves Galatians 2:16 and the New Testament believers practice of meeting on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7) to commemorate the resurrection of the Lord. Even within Bob’s framework he correctly points out that it is not a salvation breaker even if he is right. This is a wise stance on his part since saved people don’t even keep the first commandment perfectly. Anyway, don’t want to do too much talking for Bob, but I felt you addressed this to me since I started the thread.
     
  16. Sularis

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    well actually the seven referred to in the seventh day is not the normal seven in the Hebrew - surprisingly it is different - it is not a cardinal or fixed point - but rather it is ordinal or a relative point.

    I personally believe hey one day to worship - Good great Biblical - let's all have it on the same day - Even better - but sometimes things crop up - and I doubt God's gonna send you to Hell if you dont worship on a specific day - as long as you take the time to worship Him on A day.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    I am open to exegeting the context for Gen 2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11.

    In the case of Exodus 20:8-11 God is speaking directly to Israel at Sinai. Which of the meanings above do you see in the text?

    In the case of Gen 2:3 it is the 7th day of Createion week and God has just finished making mankind. What do you see them doing on the 7th day of Creation week from the text??

    In Isaiah 66 God mentions the point in the future along with the New Earth when "All mankind comes before Me to worship from Sabbath to Sabbath" -- as you exegete that text which of the meanings above do you see Isaiah using there?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    If one is to "keep the sabbath",

    What must one do on the sabbath for it to be worthy of reward, such as going to heaven?

    Conversely, what can one do on the sabbath to prevent one from entering heaven?
     
  19. BobRyan

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    If one wants to honor their parents what must one do to "Be worthy of reward and going to heaven" by such great honoring of parents??

    In Mark 9 Christ condemns the Church leaders (of the Hebrew nation church God Himself started at Sinai) for replacing God's own command about honoring parents with man's own traditions as IF man-made tradition was valid "doctrine".

    Was Christ right to do that? How "much" honoring of Parents was "needed" to be "approved" or "worthy of heaven"??

    Conversely - what can your parents do to keep you out of heaven if they don't like the way you fail to honor them? Does God really give them any say in the matter? I should hope not. God alone determines who goes to heaven.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

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    In that sequence "we have broken two". Can we find a way to follow that model and "break them all"??

    If we were to add to that sequence the Roman Catholic argument in favor of images in worship service based on the God ordained model of having golden images of Angels in the Most Holy place on top of the Ark of the Covenant -- then using a type of rationalization - we found a good way to break three. I still say that this has real possibility for going to "Ten".

    James 2 claims that this is indeed the way it goes.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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