Sacrifice in the religious context

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Thinkingstuff, Aug 11, 2010.

  1. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
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    I'm am curious at the views people have with regard to sacrifice and their faith. Especially when I take an anthropological view with how sacrifice was effected univiersally among all tribes and nations. Then I wonder Christianities application of it. I hope I can get some views and idea's from others.

    Sacrifice in the old english context had the connotation of "to make sacred". The latin root form from sacrifice is to set apart. Or dedication. Its interesting to note the Hebrew word for it is Korban or Qorbanot or "to draw near/approach". From a Jewish perspective there are three reasons to give a sacrifice 1)to Give 2) substitution and 3) coming closer.

    Most pagan views offer sacrifice hold to these three premises but with a differing understanding. Often their gods have needs like meat. In the stories from ancient summeria when sacrifices were made the Gods "came like flies" to eat the spiritual aspect of the sacrifice. You can see a relation of this in vietnamese budhist where they offer food to their idols. The ancient aztecs use to kill people by the thousands to help the sun through the sky.

    There seems to be something inate in man to need to sacrifice to placate a deity.

    What are some comparisions of Christianity to this how is it different in application and does it end somewhere or is it an essential element to our faith?
     
  2. Dr. Walter

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    My view of sacrifice is essential the same as my view of religions. God invented the sacrfice and true religion in the Garden by His own example of shedding the blood of animals (lambs) to use their skins to cover the shame of Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:21) in connection with the gospel (Gen. 3:15).

    I believe Abel chose to be a sheep herder (Gen. 4:2) because of the very example by God and this example was communicated to him through Adam as Hebrews 11:4 states that "by faith" Abel offered his sacrifice and that the sacrifice was superior in nature (Gen. 4:4)to the sacrifice offered by Cain.

    Heb. 11:4 ¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    Romans 1:18-24 gives us the developmental history of true religion into perverted religion by man.

    Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


    The sacrificial system and pure religion was again purified through the flood only to be perverted again by mankind at the tower of Babel where a new religion (mystery Babylonian religion) was fostered and then spread to all cultures through the diversity of languages which has gone through thousands of transmutations up until this present time.

     
  3. billwald

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    Some Christians worship dirt as in " the Holy Land." <G>
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

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    So for you; religion and sacrifice are synomynous. How does this affect your christological perspective? How does Calvary affect your daily religious activities? Is sacrifice necissary in a modern context?

    Primarily because Abel provided a letting of the blood or the killing of a animal rather than a gift of grain? Is this your premise? Something Had to suffer and die?

    Doesn't explain the role of sacrifice. Or the necessity of it.

    How?
    How?
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

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    How does this relate to sacrifice?
     
  6. Dr. Walter

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    I will answer the above question in a post dedicated to that subject.


    Overall Biblical teaching demands that Jesus was the lamb slain "from the foundation of the world." Hence, God's design behind sacrifice from the beginning was to be a TYPE to express the promise of satisfaction of sin through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Note that Hebrews 11:4 says that Abel provided his sacrifice "by faith." Faith is the response to either God's Word or God's promise. In every instance of "by faith" in Hebrews 11:7- speaks of the by product of faith in response to divine command or a divine promise. Faith IN God's word/promise results in a "by faith" action. The action of Abel sacrifice was due to faith in God's promised Messiah (Gen. 3:15) and God's example (Gen. 3:21). The sacrifice was the expression of Abel's faith IN God's Word and God's Promise of a Savior.

    It does explain the perversion of it and use in false religions as a LITERAL means to satisfy false god's wrath against their sins.

    It was confined to use by saints for its original established purpose by God in Eden as a TYPE to manifest faith in the gospel promise. Much like baptism it gives a public expression of faith in the gospel (Heb. 10:1-4; Col. 2:16).

    False religion perverted it's original design as a LITERAL means to appease their false god's wrath against their sins. This babylonian perversion was adopted by Rome along with other Babylonians perversons (college of Cardinals, pope, Madonna, etc.).
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    In a real sense this thread is dedicated to that subject. I am still interested in your answers.

    In what? That God would use the sacrifice for forgiveness? Out of a giving heart? Faith in the operation of the Sacrifice?
    I'm not certain Able would have made the correlation of Gen 3:15 and Jesus or the sacrifical aspect of the messiah or how it correlated with his own sacrifice. Probably better correlated with God's example.
    Possibly but at this point supposition.

    So Jews didn't literally have their sins forgiven? What? God didn't have the Jews Literally sacrifice animals?

    You still haven't explained how. How did the flood purify the sacrificial system?


    I don't know why you insist that there was no literal forgiveness of sins by the Jewish participant from God. Nor do I understand how you combined Babylonian sacrificial system with the RCC the two are equivelant. Or how the sacrificial system effects a hierachy or pictoral representations of Mother and Child. Its like you jumped into another discussion all together. still you haven't answered how.
     
  8. Dr. Walter

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    1. Abel was the first PROPHET of God:

    Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
    51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias,



    2. All the Prophets preached remission of sins by faith in the Messiah:

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    In this context baptism was administered AFTER they received the Holy Spirit not before.


    3. Sacrifices were types (shadow) that never took away sins literally:

    For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices....4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


    Heb. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    The gospel was preached unto Abraham (Gal. 3:6-8) and Abraham is given as the ROLE MODEL or "the father" for ALL who believe and he received remission of sins (Rom. 4:7-8) 14 years BEFORE he submitted to external rites or offered up a sacrifice in Canaan. Remission of sins as well as imputed righteousness IS justification (Rom. 4:5-8).

    God cleansed the whole earth from the ungodly by the flood. The prinicples of Romans 1:18-22 fit the ungodly before as well as after the flood. The only living persons who offered up sacrifice were God's people in keeping with God's design.


    I know you don't. However, what I have tried to demonstrate is that the Biblical system of sacrifice from the very beginning was merely a TYPE designed by God to visibly express faith in the gospel and in the promise of God and that sins were remitted through faith not through sacrifice as "NEVER with those sacrifices" were sins ever taken away literally but only in "shadow." Rome reverses this and thus Rome did not get it from God's Word or God's design and that leaves only the practice of heathen religion.
     
    #8 Dr. Walter, Aug 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2010
  9. Thinkingstuff

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    I'm not sure what baptism has to do with the conversation. Jesus did call Abel a prophet and the Prophets are witnesses of Jesus but I'm not sure in how literal a sense that is to be taken. Certainly, in that God would fulfill the requirements for forgiveness.


    So basically, God was wasting everyones time with this requirement.

    Certainly, if someone has faith in a thing then that thing is effectual for them. If they do not then it is not.
    But he still had the requirement of sacrificing. Unless God's requirement of sacrifice was his way of wasting our time. Why create a type that has no relevance today? Sacrifice therefore should not have been required but a simple belief in the future. Why does God waste peoples activity and kill animals for nothing?

    God certainly wipe the ungodly by the flood. But according to you God should have kept wiping out people who did not purely sacrifice. Was God in error?


    He therefore wasted peoples time by making them practice something to no effect. Kind of pointless huh?
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    Bottom line - types are worthless and a waste of time. That is the conclusion you repreatedly come to in your post below. Hence, we ought not to find any types in scripture as that would demonstrate God is not a serious God or who would waste both His time and ours. Perhaps we should help God out and re-word Hebrews 10:1-4 by omitting the terms "shadow" and "not the very image" and delete "never" and "impossible" in order to make God's ordinances more practical and useful to us and our way of thinking. Perhaps, like Ford, "we have a better idea"?

    It was OUR sin that put Christ to death, so why shouldn't that be expressed in worship until Christ actually fulfilled it in time and space on the cross?


     
    #10 Dr. Walter, Aug 11, 2010
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  11. Thinkingstuff

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    If something is ineffectual its a waste of time. Yes. Our sin is a real thing. If God combated OT sin with something that was ineffectual it was a waste of time. What he should have done then is say. I will send a Messiah at some point who will be the perfect sacrifice. All you have to do is believe that to be true and you will be forgiven. Sacrificing animals therefore is a waste of time. And of good livestock. A shadow of a future event is more than a symbolic reference to something which is how you've classified animal sacrifices.
     
  12. kyredneck

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    :) :thumbs: :)
     
  13. Dr. Walter

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    Why do you assume sacrifices were designed by God to effectually remit sin?

    Furthermore, consider the ritual of cleasning the Leper. In Luke 5 the lepersy was literally healed and removed and yet Christ tells the cleansed leper to go to the preist and offer a sacrifice for his cleansing. The life of several animals was taken for a cleansing that was obviously figurative as the Leper had already been fully and completely healed before he even started toward the temple.

    Luke 5:12 And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
    13 And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him.
    14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them
    .

    Read what Leviticus 14 commands for the cleansed leper to offer for his cleansing:

    Le 14:4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
    Le 14:5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:
    Le 14:6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:
    Le 14:7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
    Le 14:8 And he that is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, and shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean: and after that he shall come into the camp, and shall tarry abroad out of his tent seven days.
    Le 14:9 But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean.
    Le 14:10 ¶ And on the eighth day he shall take two he lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, and three tenth deals of fine flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil.
    Le 14:11 And the priest that maketh him clean shall present the man that is to be made clean, and those things, before the LORD, at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
    Le 14:12 And the priest shall take one he lamb, and offer him for a trespass offering, and the log of oil, and wave them for a wave offering before the LORD:
    Le 14:13 And he shall slay the lamb in the place where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering is the priest’s, so is the trespass offering: it is most holy:
    Le 14:14 And the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:
    Le 14:15 And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and pour it into the palm of his own left hand:
    Le 14:16 And the priest shall dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:
    Le 14:17 And of the rest of the oil that is in his hand shall the priest put upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot, upon the blood of the trespass offering:
    Le 14:18 And the remnant of the oil that is in the priest’s hand he shall pour upon the head of him that is to be cleansed: and the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD.
    Le 14:19 And the priest shall offer the sin offering, and make an atonement for him that is to be cleansed from his uncleanness; and afterward he shall kill the burnt offering:
    Le 14:20 And the priest shall offer the burnt offering and the meat offering upon the altar: and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and he shall be clean
    .

    So the sacrifices did not literally cleanse him of his lepersy one bit and yet this whole procedure was commanded by Christ for a man already cleansed of lepersy.

    It seems your issue is with God.



     
    #13 Dr. Walter, Aug 11, 2010
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  14. Thinkingstuff

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    I believe it has everything to do with the renewal/rememberance of the covenant and it effects community and single relationship withing the bounds of that covenant.

    As was required by law given as the contract for the covenant.

    effectual in the renewal of the covenant. And by covenant activities are in effectual.

    it was a requirement of law indicating a favor provided by God within the covenant so that is not my issue with God.
     
  15. Dr. Walter

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    I have no problem understanding such things as signs of the covenant and integral with relationship with the community of the people of God in remembrance of Christ.

    However, Luke 5:13-15 proves such ceremonial laws with sacrifices are INEFFECTUAL to create LITERAL spiritual renewal, remission of sins or literal atonement. Note the reason Jesus gives for going to the preists and making this offering - "for a TESTIMONY unto them."

    Christ did not say go offer for thy cleansing in order to be literal cleansed of leporsy or to obtain literal atonement. Although, the ritual brought him back into a working relationship with the covenant community as lepers where outcast and separated from the community of God's people.

    I believe baptism precedes church membership (Acts 2:41) and thus is the prerequisite to bring that person into the working community of God's people but in regard to literal cleansing, that has already been accomplished by the Word of Christ:

    12 ¶ And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
    13 And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him.

    Literal renewal and cleansing preceded ritual renewal and cleansing. Ritual renewal and cleansing was only for FORMAL TESTIMONY TO OTHERS:

    14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
     
  16. Dr. Walter

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    The basic issue here is that ceremonial rites are things you do and are "good works." However, we are first "created in Christ Jesus" and good works follow "UNTO good works." They are not causual in being "created in Christ Jesus" but are consequential to being "created in Christ Jesus."

    Likewise, the leper believed in Christ for the cleansing of his lepersy and was cleansed BEFORE he performed "good works" by observing the Law of Moses. He was not instructed to do it in order to be LITERALLY cleansed as that had already occurred but "for a testimony unto them."

    Ceremonial rites are simply acts of PUBLIC IDENTIFICATION with the gospel and with God's covenant people.

     
    #16 Dr. Walter, Aug 12, 2010
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  17. billwald

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    The purpose of the sacrifice was to provide an external representation of one's repentance in the same way that Baptists say that baptism is an external representation of a prior conversion.
     
  18. Dr. Walter

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    This is quite true! However, in addition, baptism is the prerequisite for bringing a person into the local church or the local fellowship of believers - the visible covenant community. It also publicly identifies you with not only the gospel of Christ, the church of Christ but also with the doctrine of Christ as those authorized to administer baptism in the Great commission are also those who can teach you "to observe all things whatsoever" Christ has commanded.

    So baptism is more than a mere type but it is certainly not a sacrament as it does not literally convey saving grace to anyone.
     
  19. quantumfaith

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    I have often pondered the "why" of the idea of sacrifice initiated by God. I guess the best I can arrive at is to illustrate to man the seriousness of breaking ranks with God. In our "finite" existence there can be no more serious illustration than the death of an innocent. Call me strange, but as I say grace for a meal, I often think gratefully towards the "sacrifice" made by the animal in order to make provision for me to continue my existence.
     
  20. RAdam

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    Hebrews 10 says that in sacrifice there was a remembrance of sins every year. Imagine having to constantly offer up sacrifices. It would tend to reinforce the fact that there is a Holy God in heaven who hates sin, that I am a sinner needing forgiveness, and forgiveness is gained through the death of a substitute. Remember well God beating this into their heads: the blood is the life. When the blood of an animal was to be shed, that was representative of the life of that animal. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Something or someone has to die to put away sins.

    Those substitutes all pictured, or foreshadowed, the great Substitute, the Lord Jesus. They were all pictures of Him.
     

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