Saddleback/Purpose Driven

There is meat and bones with the Purpose Driven stuff, I would encourage him to understand the what happened with Saddleback is not likely to happen wherever he is, so don't expect it. Also understand that it is a model that should and can be adapted.

 

Good question Doc. I would not attend there because I feel that a Church can be too big and one can be lost in the crowd. I have not read "The Purpose Driven Life" all the way through, only excerpts from it. Mr. Warren words things in a way that it would be difficult to criticize what he says.
My concerns centers around asking parishioners what they think the Church services should be like: (Don't like organ music? Out goes the organ!) Whose Church is it, anyway? One wonders in such a setting if it is possible that, not only do people get lost in it, but, perhaps the Lord Jesus Himself is lost in there as well. (Leaving their first love). Whenever I see such a thing as a Church with huge growth, I must ask, in the words of Spurgeon, are they, "Feeding Sheep, or Amusing Goats?"

 

Is it your position then that God likes organ music over guitars? That question "Whose Church is it, anyway? would be well asked on both sides of the issue. I believe we make a mistake when put ourselves in a position to speak for God, saying that He prefers a certain style of music.

"Make a joyful _______ unto the Lord!" What's the missing word? Not harmony, not organ music, not necessarily 1700/1800/early 1900 hymns - even though they are what I personally like (sincerely). I think the "joyful noise" is the important part - whether it be hymns or appropriate contemporary praise music.

Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise. - Psalm 98:4

 

Dr B, I am in agreement with you. Each congregation (and each member) should use whatever gifts they have to glorify and worship God to the best of their ability. If what you have is traditional pianists and organists and a congregation that sings the old hymns with renewed vigor, then be the best hymn-singing church you can be...blow the roof off with hymns so the whole neighborhood hears you praising God!

On the other hand, if you have a "keyboardist," a bass player and a high school drummer, along with a congregation that worships by singing scripture set to music, then have the best contemporary worship service you can! Beat that drum!

In either case, or in the case of churches that have a blended worship style, may we all be known as churches that praise God.

 

Regarding the quote by Spurgeon, I must point out that at Pentecost the congregation in Jerusalem grew from about 120 to about 3000 in a very short period of time. Feeding sheep, or amusing goats?

 

My concern, on the music is that it could get to where it is not Christ honoring. We are talking about God The Son, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, not Peggy Sue or Billie Jean.
Make a joyful noise, yes.
Have music that you cannot tell the difference between it and what the world plays, NO!
The Congregation makes decisions concerning the Church, no doubt about it, but it is not their Church.
God help us if we forget Whose Church it is!
You cannot tell me that a Mega Church(10,000 members let's say) doesn't contain an awful lot of goats, and by this music and, probably watered-down messages they hear, that Many of these Churches are little more than country clubs.
As for what happened at Pentecost, I can't see the relevence, that was a great work of God adding to the young Church.
Call me old fashioned, fine, this is my opinion, the expression opinions is what I thought this board was about.

 

Agreed!!!

 

Don't the music comments, I don't know when the organ became sacred, but I have never listen to organ music outside of church. Aren't you the least bit excited when folks that don't normally come to church show up? Why can't you be happy for the effectiveness of someone else's ministry? Warren NEVER said this was only way to do church, just a way.

 

I started to read PDL last week. Read up to day 13 and I haven't been able to bring myself back to read it. It's not nesscarly that what he's saying is all wrong, a lot of it is right, but he misses so much (enough that I would not recommend the book to a new believer. Chapter 7 where he exaplins Salvation was one of the worst explinations/presentation I have seen) and what is right in it is so basic that anyone who has even done a quick read of some of the NT should know.

Bryan
SDG

 

I agree, well put. The PDC concept is a good biblically sound concept. When utilizing it as a tool to strengthen your walk with the Lord, it's a great tool. The problem lies when a church or group replaces scripture with the PDC model. That was never Rick Warren's intent, nor is it the intent of churches that have successfully utilized the PDC model. But some churches do this all the time. They replace scripture with Ruckman, or replace scripture with Luther, or Calvin, or Sproul, Spurgeon or Hybels, etc etc. Peoples' writings, commentaries, and lessons are often worthy tools for use by people to support their Christians walks, but they should never be used to replace scripture. When they are used in this manner, blame should not be placed on the authors, but the end users.

 

I agree, Its not that the philosophy itself is wrong, I don't agree with every detail of the PDC, but the overall ideas are right on. As long as you don't abandon Biblical principles, it can be a great way to organize a ministry and evaluate your methods.

the PDL is very simple, but it leads to some pretty major concepts. It was not a book that I learned large amounts of deep theology for sure, but it was very thought provoking. I am starting to use to with a new christian that I am working with. It will be quick, not too much at a time, and it leads to discussion questions that go deeper.

The real problem with many of the churches who have adopted this philosophy is not the PDC mentality, or even the teachings of Warren, but the fact that they are completely and totally man-centered and pragmatic in their decision making process.

 

I'm curious if those who advocate PDL have read MacArthur's Ashamed of the Gospel. It seems to me that what is being persented by Mr. Warren is so watered down that it would almost fit perfectly with what Mr. MacArthur describes in his book.

Bryan
SDG

 

Don't forget PDL is a method/ model, not a theology book

 

Bugman, you said you had only read up to day 13. Don't base your view of PDL on just that. I did not like the first several chapters that much either, and had issues with some of the way he phrased things.

However, the book gets much better in later chapters. I think his chapter on worship is great. It's like someone else said -- it's meat and bones but some of the meat is good. Read more before you decide.

 

I had heard that if you come to the table expecting meat,better just bring a straw for this book.

This book,as well as the Purpose Driven Church, is a seeker sensitive market driven philosophy that uses scripture as its basis,but very loosely.

It leaves out many important concepts like repentance and sin saying that patterns of sin are just a *repeating cycle of good intention-failure-guilt* in which people need to *be healed*. Many topics are left out such as God's Holiness,the cross,absolute truth,God's Sovereignty,His commandments...these are replaced with good self image,spiritual success,personal fullfillment.(this statement is found in this article) I could not agree more. I happen to agree with the author at this website....www.biblebb.com/files/pdl.htm

I trust these guys much more than Rick Warren and his superficial fluff.

But,of course,JMO!

Molly

 

Molly, you presume that Rick Warren doesn't preach about God's Holiness, the cross, absolute truth, God's Sovereignty, His commandments, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact that so many folks are judging a person's entire ministry based on a single book or methodology is rather selfrighteous. Yet another case of "I don't care for it, so it must be bad".

I've found it interesting that many of the people on thie board who have spoken ill of Rick Warren also often speak highly of Jack Chick. Then again, is that any surprise??

 

I do not speak highly of Jack Chick except when discussing his entertainment value with my freinds.

I am in no way judging Mr. Warren here because it's just one books, but I do have problems with what I have read so far of that one book (I will finish it yet).

Bryan
SDG