Salvation and the kingdom.....

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Gina B, Oct 23, 2001.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    Do you think having salvation and inheriting the kingdom is the same thing?
    Gina
     
  2. Joey M

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    Yes.

    God speed.
     
  3. donnA

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    Yes.
    At salvation we are adopted into the family of God, and become heirs in the kingdom of God. One doesn't exsist without the other.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    Parallel of the two are in John 3:3 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  5. donnA

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    Test time.....
    Was I right Dr. Bob?
     
  6. Gina B

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    What exactly is the Bible talking about with the word Kingdom?
    Gina
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by katie:
    Test time.....
    Was I right Dr. Bob?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Yes, Katie, the phrase about seeing "the kingdom of God" is equated with "born again" so they would be the same.

    BUT . . . not every reference to the "kingdom" is the same, so be careful in your reading to see if such is referring to an earthly reign or to God up in heaven. It do make a difference!! [​IMG]
     
  8. preacher

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    also have to remember there is a difference between " kingdom of God" & " kingdom of Heaven".
     
  9. Gina B

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    You going to explain it preacher? ;)
    And will you go into a little more depth with your answer Dr. Bob?
    Gina
     
  10. SPAM

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    Gina, or da Gina as I've seen you post it, infatically YES. If not, why accept salvation at all?

    Paul {Spam}
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    Technically speaking, having salvation is what gets one into the kingdom. In salvation we are transferred into the kingdom (Col 1:13). In John 3, Nicodemus could not get into the kingdom because he was not born again. So there is, IMO, a technical distinction though all who are saved will get into the kingdom.

    The kingdom of God is the reign of Christ on the earth. It is the culmination of God's plan for his people Israel. Suggested reading would be The Greatness of the Kingdom by Alva J. McClain.

    Lastly, a distinction between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God cannot be consistently sustained. It is better to see them as referring to the same thing, since the gospel authors used the terms that way (cf. the parable of the sower).
     
  12. Gina B

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    Spam: what I'm trying to figure out is if the Kingdom could be something less literal than a place. I'm patiently waiting on Dr. Bob's or someone else's knowledge to help me out there. Why wouldn't you accept salvation if the word meant something different in some cases? There's only a few places where the word seems to be literal, and none of them are referring to the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God.
    Hope that made some sense. If it makes any sense at all, I'm asking in the first place because it came up in a conversation about whether or not you could lose your salvation, and I know you can't, and none of the verses brought up about inheriting the kingdom or anything else proved otherwise, but it got me thinking and this is what I'm coming out with and it would help for next time if I had a little knowledge about what it is!
    Am I making even less sense as I go along? Ha ha. This is why I usually just toss out a question and don't explain why. My brain works weird and I don't know how to explain it. :D
    da Gina
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
    Spam: what I'm trying to figure out is if the Kingdom could be something less literal than a place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If I might answer a question addressed to another:

    NO.

    The kingdom in Scripture is a concrete concept developed throughout the whole OT. The prophets continually speak of the removal of the kingdom for disobedience, along with eviction from the land, but also unequivocally promise a restoration of both the kingdom with its davidic ruler (Christ) and the restoration to the land. In particular read Isaiah 40-66, Zech 9-14, and Micah. However, there are a host of passages that discuss it.

    In the first century Christ offered the kingdom but the Jews rejected. In Acts 3:19-21 it is offered again and promise as a "time of restoration." The coming kingdom will be established by God in fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.

    This does not deny that there are spiritual aspects to the kingdom, some of which are in place now. But the kingdom is not simply spiritual. It is a physical, literal kingdom with a king, a land, and subjects. McClain delineates 6 aspects of the kingdom which all must be in place for the OT prophecy to be fulfilled. That is why there is no kingdom now -- those aspects do not all exist.
     
  14. Dr. Bob

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    In some NT cases, the terms Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are used interchangeably.

    Most often the Kingdom of Heaven refers to the kingdom of the heavens over the earth - what we call the millenial reign of Christ over planet earth. It is the ultimate reign of Messiah over creation.

    It will last 1000 years, then, after a short rebellion against King Jesus, He will offer this as an eternal kingdom to the Father <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The Kingdom of God is a spiritual realm in which all believers have a place. Look up "kingdom" on the search and you will find a good discussion on the distinctions that we had not long ago . . .
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    Dr. Bob,

    Have you read McClain's book? His is probably the watershed work on the kingdom, at least from a biblical (read dispensational [​IMG]) viewpoint.

    He outlines a universal kingdom (the control of God over the whole earth, i.e., his sovereign rule) and a mediatorial kingdom, the OT conception of the kingdom to which most of his book is devoted. Most references in the Scripture to the "kingdom" are the mediatorial kingdom. I have become persuaded through my study that all believers are in the kingdom of God which is the kingdom of heaven. I simply cannot see a difference without making Scripture "walk on all fours" as one of my professors used to say. I think we are so far separated from the OT idea of the kingdom that we think in our terms rather than in the terms of biblical authors for whom the coming king and his kingdom was the climax of human history.

    [ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  16. Danette

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    Note also Gal. 5:16-25. This is written to believers. In verse, 21 it says that "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." This phrase follows a list of deeds of the flesh. Paul is telling believers that these actions indicate whether a believer is walking in the flesh or in the Spirit. So there is a way in which believers can "not inherit the kingdom of God."

    IMO, you have to look at the context of the verse to see whether it is referring to heaven or to the abundant Christian life on earth. During our time on this earth, as believers, we have two options. We can walk on earth just marking time until the heavenly roll-call, living lives that have no blessing (not talking material blessing here), no fruit of the Spirit, no joy; lives that are basically no different from our lost neighbors other than the fact that we go to church and "do" all the "right" things and have a free pass into heaven when we die. Or we can walk in an abundant life as a result of continuously being transformed by the Holy Spirit's active work in our lives as we learn to walk by faith, moment-by-moment, in a literal relationship with God. The latter of those two options is what the kingdom of God on earth is all about (when it's NOT talking about the millennial reign of Christ -- that's a totally different thing).

    -- Danette
     
  17. Gina B

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    Ok. I was thinking kingdom might be more of a .... I don't even know how to word it. Descriptive verb? LOL.
    Ok, I'm done now.
    Danette: Reading Galations 5 was exactly what brought this up in the first place. [​IMG]
    Thanks for your input.
    Gina
     
  18. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Danette:
    Note also Gal. 5:16-25. This is written to believers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I must differ Danette. Galatians is written to professed believers. It adressesses three groups of people: true believers, professed believers and judaizers. There is no way a believer cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    From Easton's:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Kingdom of God — (Matt. 6:33; Mark 1:14, 15; Luke 4:43) = “kingdom of Christ” (Matt. 13:41; 20:21) = “kingdom of Christ and of God” (Eph. 5:5) = “kingdom of David” (Mark 11:10) = “the kingdom” (Matt. 8:12; 13:19) = “kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 13:41), all denote the same thing under different aspects, viz.: (1) Christ’s mediatorial authority, or his rule on the earth; (2) the blessings and advantages of all kinds that flow from this rule; (3) the subjects of this kingdom taken collectively, or the Church. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  19. SPAM

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    Gina, do not worry about being confusing or explaining yourself well, we all lack the grace to do so at times.

    The kingdom of God is every bit a physical place, as well a spiritual place. Throughout scripture, the same termonology is used referencing different meanings. But, if I may assume, I believe you were talking about the kingdom of God as it pertains to heaven, in the physical realm; correct?

    The salvation I referred to is salvation unto heaven, a physical place. Understand also, that the kingdom of God is wherever God is, literally, for the next time He appears, it will not be as a Lamb to the slaughter; quite the contrary. So He will establish His kingdom, wherever he may be througout eternity.

    There are some that call themselves baptist who deny that heaven and hell are literal places. But, be assured, if you have been saved, your salvation is unto a physical kingdom, God has built for His children.

    Hope I didn't confuse.

    Paul {Spam}
     
  20. Danette

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    Gal. was written to "the churches of Galatia" (1:2), so it assumes a body of believers, though we all know that any church includes those who are and those who aren't but think they are, etc. However, the primary point of the book of Galatians is Paul exposing the false doctrine that had crept into the church (and which is common in the church today), where they were teaching that after salvation believers must also comply with the Law. The heart of the matter is Gal. 3:3-5
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the
    flesh?

    Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

    He therefore that ministereth to you the
    Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by
    the hearing of faith?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The book of Galatians goes on to explain why this is false doctrine, the reason why a walk of faith is incompatible with adding on requirements of law and what the results are of trying to mix faith and law in Christianity. Gal. 3:2-5 makes it very clear this subject is targeted toward believers. Gal. 5, in it's immediate context, is clearly written to believers. Verses 16-25 state the different results that occur when believers walk in the flesh versus when they walk in the Spirit. See the immediate context in verses 13 & 14, "For, brethren, ye have been called unto
    liberty; only use not liberty for an
    occasion to the flesh, but by love serve
    one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." He's warning believers not to be drawn back into adding on rules/law to please God because law and Spirit don't mix.

    The only "law" we have as believers is what Jesus stated in Jn. 15:9-17 (and many other places) to love God and love others. This is only possible through the function of the Holy Spirit (I Jn. 4:10-13, Gal. 5:22).

    If love is fruit of the Spirit and we as believers are capable of quenching the Spirit (I Thess. 5:19), what would be the result? The deeds of the flesh in Gal. 5 are the specifically stated results.

    Another passage of Scripture that supports this is Rom. 7:7-25. This is very clearly written about the perpetual struggle in the life of the believer between law/flesh and the Spirit. Rom. 8:1-14 again highlights the perpetual battle of law/flesh v. Spirit. The only way in which we walk victoriously (experiencing the kingdom of God!) is as we walk in the Spirit rather than in the bondage of the law/flesh. This is accomplished through the process of sanctification -- being transformed as the Holy Spirit works in our lives exposing where we are blindly walking in the flesh, bringing our lives into obedience through faith. Our lives on this earth are spent in the process of learning this (II Cor. 3:17, 18; II Cor. 10:3-5, etc.) Positionally this work of perfection is completed at the moment of salvation -- our spirit is perfect in Christ. But our bodies are yet unredeemed and the duration of our life on earth is a walk of faith, learning to walk in the truth of our spiritual position in spite of what we "see" in our unredeemed bodies on this earth. That's what the Word means when it says the just shall live by faith, and that without faith it is impossible to please God. And that's why adding on rules/law to the Christian walk is absolutely counter to the walk of faith. That's why Gal. 5:2-6 says that believers have fallen from grace -- that doesn't mean anybody has lost their salvation, they've cut themselves off from the grace to walk in the Spirit.

    -- Danette

    P.S. I absolutely love the book of Galatians!! It is so rich and so powerful!!
     

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