Salvation by Works

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Psalm145 3, Oct 14, 2001.

  1. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2001
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was in a chat room today and an infidel was trying to teach salvation by works. The text he used was John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."-- New American Standard

    This verse certainly teaches salvation by works. This is the problem with these corrupted versions that people say is God's Word when it is NOT God's Word. You might say, "well, that's just one verse out of how many that teach no such thing." Fundamental Bible believing Christians know that Scripture never ever contradicts Scripture.

    If that reprobate had the real Bible, maybe he would've had a harder time convincing other unbelievers that salvation is by human works. It is not surprising that unbelievers are clueless as to which English version is the Word of God because the god of this world hath blinded their minds.

    Brothers and sisters in Christ, your minds are not blinded by the devil. Maybe a little confused, but not blinded. I'm not saying I know everything, but one thing I do know is Satan hates the Word of God and will do anything he can to take the edge off the sword of the Spirit. Please, study this version issue carefully and prayerfully. If you already have and have come to the conclusion that the NASB, NIV, or NKJV is just as good or better than the King James Bible, study it again, because somewhere along the line you went astray.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that
    believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.-- King James Bible
     
  2. Rockfort

    Rockfort
    Expand Collapse
    x

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    0
    Acts 5:32, KJV-- And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Romans 2:8, KJV-- But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

    2 Thessalonians 1:8, KJV-- In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

    Hebrews 5:9, KJV-- And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

    1 Peter 4:17, KJV-- For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    Does the KJV-- or does it not-- teach salvation and the Holy Spirit go to those who obey the gospel, and destruction and wrath to those who do not?
     
  3. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Psalm- You have given us a great example of how you can take scripture out of context to fit one's own agenda.

    Until Next Post, Adam
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Psalm

    You have also provided a great example of how you can take a word that means "obey" and deny the meaning of it. The MVs have it right on this one. The word means to obey.
     
  5. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
    I was in a chat room today and an infidel was trying to teach salvation by works. The text he used was John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."-- <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So are you saying you can be saved and NOT obey Christ? That is pure antinomianism.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
    9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
    10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
     
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Another one that people use is: Phil 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Just like Paul if there was any other way that he could be accursed for his kindred sake that they might see the joys of the Lord Jesus Chirst that he was able to see.

    There are multitudes of Gods children that are never permitted to see their complete Salvation because they have to add the works of man to the eternal equation. "Jesus Paid It All... All To Him I Owe! Sin Had Left A Crimson Stain... He Washed It White As Snow!
    They don't realize their are two types of Salvation... Timely and Eternal... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  7. John Wells

    John Wells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is true because the Gr. verb rendered “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to fulfillment or completion.” It cannot refer to salvation by works (Rom. 3:21–24; Eph. 2:8-9), but it does refer to the believer’s responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of sanctification.
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I disagree with your explaination and will put my trust in the Lord for my Predestination, Sanctification, Regeneration, Justification, and Glorification... For he is my ONLY Salvation... You can put your trust in YOUR works salvation... Brother Glen
     
  9. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tyndale1946:
    I disagree with your explaination and will put my trust in the Lord for my Predestination, Sanctification, Regeneration, Justification, and Glorification... For he is my ONLY Salvation... You can put your trust in YOUR works salvation... Brother Glen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not sure who you're responding to; probably John as you reply immediately followed his. And this probably needs to move to the theology forum.

    But you did not answer the question: Are you saying you can be saved and NOT obey Christ?

    Now I'm a bazillion point Calvinist :D and know I was saved by grace and grace alone. Yet can you exegete these verses?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
    22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
    23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
    24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    The first point of that doctrine is the Total Depravity of Man. If there can possibly anyway that you can be saved (Eternally) by your (faith)let me know.
    I said your faith not the Faith that was given you as a gift by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Man is unable by his own works to attain eternal life. He is dead... Totally Depraved and there is no human way to deliver him. That my brother is Calvinism... Anything less is something else... Brother Glen
     
  11. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2000
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Revelation 22:14 KJV

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they might have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

    15 for without are dogs, and sorcerers....


    I heard John R Rice say this was a bad translation in the KJV because it supported works salvatoin.
     
  12. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Those verses have nothing to do with salvation, and John R. Rice was confused about what Grace is!

    The verses are talking about those who are already in heaven having either constant, limited, or no access to the city of God. Those who have limited or no access live on the earth in the light given off by the city.

    The verse is talking out our level of faithfulness after we are saved. It is talking about our position in heaven, our level of reward, not about our being in heaven at all. [​IMG]
     
  13. John Wells

    John Wells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro Glen,

    Might I remind you that "faith without works is dead." James 2:26 This backs up my post that you took issue with.

    Works come after salvation, not before it; a byproduct of grace, but MUST occur if salvation is genuine. The reason why the Gospel is such good news is because it resolves that which is such bad news. We are not only born in sin we continue in it each day; if we say that we have not sinned then we deceive only ourselves and we are liars (1 John1:8). The first thing we must come to understand is the definition of the word grace. Grace is commonly defined as unmerited favor but we must go much further than this. By definition, grace must be antithetical to works.(Romans 11:1-7) Grace is also antithetical to fairness or justice. (Romans 6:20-23) By definition, grace must be completely free from works otherwise grace is no longer grace.
     
  14. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    Those verses have nothing to do with salvation, and John R. Rice was confused about what Grace is!

    The verses are talking about those who are already in heaven having either constant, limited, or no access to the city of God. Those who have limited or no access live on the earth in the light given off by the city.

    The verse is talking out our level of faithfulness after we are saved. It is talking about our position in heaven, our level of reward, not about our being in heaven at all. [​IMG]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Okay, you really have my interest peaked now. Are you talking about people who are already dead? Are you talking about people who will be in heaven at a later time (after the judgement?) Can you explain further exactly where you are coming from. This I have not heard, but would like to learn more.

    I have another question and the reason I ask it is to understand your beliefs of the above. Are you pre-trib, pre-rapture, etc. or something else and would you explain that and your reasons why? I hope you don't mind taking the time to answer these questions, but this is interesting subjects I have been trying to study.
    Thank you, [​IMG]
     
  15. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
    I was in a chat room today and an infidel was trying to teach salvation by works. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    An "infidel" caught my eyes. Too bad it wasn't bin Laden, you could have made some good money. (Don't forget to tithe out of it.) Just a little humor here. have a good day [​IMG]
     
  16. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2000
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    T Cassidy [Those verses have nothing to do with salvation, and John R. Rice was confused about what Grace is!
    The verses are talking about those who are already in heaven having either constant, limited, or no access to the city of God. Those who have limited or no access live on the earth in the light given off by the city.]

    I think you are mistaken on this. There is a very clear dichotomy presented- those inside the city, and those outside. On the outside are the lost, and on the inside are the....special christians who were more faithful than the others? No, the redeemed.
    Are you saying then that the carnal christians will have or access to the tree of life? Or, maybe they will export the fruit?

    Sincerely,
    RR
     

Share This Page

Loading...