Salvation Diagrams

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Mar 11, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    Hey all,

    I wanted to see if maybe diagraming salvation would help us understand the various salvation paradigms. I wanted to start with the Calvin model since some say that I misunderstand it. You who are Calvinists, "quote" and paste anything you think I missed, OK? Or just comment and I'll try to "doctor" up the diagram (this ain't a job for the impatient!) :D

    I put "faith" and "belief" together as y'all say they are equal. The events closest to the double line are the ones we can see in the course of time -- off line, we can't.


    ==================================================================>
    ----- Hear ----------------------//--------------------> Faith --------Sanctification --->
    |......the..................................................................Belief
    |.....Word
    |......./\
    |..."Effectual
    |.....Call"
    |
    Holy Spirit
    Regeneration
    |
    ELECT

    |_______________________ _____________________________________________|
    ...................................................\/
    ..............................................ELECTION

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Mar 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2007
  2. Brandon C. Jones

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    I don't get the diagram
     
  3. johnp.

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    Election comes before salvation not after salvation. One is elected to office not from office. :)

    That's all I can make out from the diagram. It seems to put election at the wrong end. :)

    It's in Ancient I think. The 'word' '/\' (goes out) and is the 'effectual call'.
    How's that skypair? But if that is right then it must be wrong. :) ISA 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

    God sends His word for a specific purpose and it always succeeds in His specific purpose. Many are called but few chosen.

    john.
     
  4. DQuixote

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    I think the diagram got garbled.
     
  5. skypair

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    I'm sorry guys,

    Since it is impossible to space all the way to a "middle of the field" item without the dots/periods.

    john -- election, I took, is before salvation (in Calvin's paradigm) and continues through eternity. Is that what you meant? Or do you mean that election is merely the beginning point?

    I think you got the "effectual call" right - at the hearing of the word? The diagram is supposed to show that the effectual call comes at the time when the word is heard.

    I agree with your synopsis. The word always accomplishes God's purpose. Do you want me to replace "ELECT" with "ELECTION" in the diagram?

    Brandon -- the point is that those items that are not on the double line represent events that are outside of time or indefinite as to time.

    Hey, thanks for trying on this. :D I have a followup from the "free will" perspective that lies parallel to this double line but I want to make sure I have the Calvinist approach right. I hope to do an interesting Catholic parallel, too.

    I don't think anyone hass tried this before so please bear with me.

    skypair
     
  6. johnp.

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    Hello skypair.

    You have invented a new way to try to understand Calvinism? Cool. :)

    EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

    The choosing happened before creation. Adoption is for life. It makes me a member of God's family permanantly, a good son or a bad son does not change my Father.

    There was no beginning point of God's love for me.

    What do you mean 'I think' ? If the diagram is supposed to show that the effectual call comes at the time when the word is heard I would say it is not necessarily so. A person may be convicted later upon reflection of what he has heard. As long as the word of God has penetrated the ear the Holy Spirit can awaken it at will. It is stored in memory for use by the Holy Spirit. That is why we should read the bible and read and read. He brings to mind those things we imput.

    I've no idea what the diagram means. As I said, election should come before hear because only His sheep can hear His voice and regeneration should be sandwhiched between elect and hear for unless a man is born again he cannot hear. :)

    How's that?

    john.
     
  7. skypair

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    ...

    OK, here's the whole diagram.

    ..................................................................SPIRITUAL
    ...............................................................RESURRECTION
    ......................................CALL........................./\...................ELECTION
    ................|______________/\_________________ | ._______________/\___________
    ................|..................................................| | |
    "Whosoever"...................................................|
    ........|............................................................|.ELECT
    ........|............................................................|......\/...........Holy Spirit
    ........|--->Hear ---> Believe ---> Repentance ---->| Faith ---> Regeneration/sanctification-----> glorification
    ...............the.......................(Test of Belief)........|
    ............Word...................................................|
    ====================================================================>
    ........|---- Hear ----------------------//----------> Faith ---> Sanctification -----------------------> glorification
    ........|......the....................................................Belief
    ........| Word
    ........|......./\
    ........|........|
    ........|.."Effectual
    ........|.....Call"
    ........|
    ..Holy Spirit
    Regeneration
    ........|
    ...ELECT(ION)

    The top is "free will" -- the bottom Calvinism. The double line is a temporal experiential timeline. "Input" is "Whosoever," top left and "ELECT(ION)" bottom left. Notice that free will hears, believes, repents (and here is a new concept, "belief test"), and God gives faith. Also, upon repentance, the believer is "baptized by the Holy Spirit" into faith, dying to self and being resurrected -- "raised to heavenly places in Christ Jesus" -- to "newness of life" (reborn, "born again") on earth.

    Perhaps I should explain "belief test." When God reveals Himself, it is to test man to either believe or not believe. If man believes, regardless of which dispensation, he will deny self-righteousness and acknowledge God's righteousness in his soul/conscience. From this point -- which we call "justification unto salvation" -- God continuously reveals His righteousness for man to follow.

    Notice the division between "call" to salvation and "election" to purposes of God in sanctification -- a major distinction between the 2 views regarding "election."

    Now Calvinists -- care to submit corrections or amplifications?

    skypair
     
    #7 skypair, Mar 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2007
  8. dwmoeller1

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    Your diagram still doesn't make sense, so try this simple one. If there are details missing you want included, put them in where you think they go and we will evaluate.

    In order:
    Foreknowledge ->
    election/predestination ->
    effectual calling (ie. evangelism accompanied by regeneration in the hearer) ->
    faith/belief ->
    justification ->
    sanctification ->
    glorification

    A couple notes:
    1. RE: faith and belief. Setting aside the question of whether or not they are equal, synonomous or neither, both clearly precede salvation in Scripture: believe and you will be saved; salvation is through faith.

    2. RE: salvation. Most Cists would argue that salvation can be spoken on in 3 ways - past (were saved), present (are being saved), and future (will be saved). In general, these line up with justification (were saved), sanctification (are being saved) and glorification (will be saved). So, upon belief/faith in Christ (and not before), one is justified and salvation is said to have occured.

    3. The basic outline of the ordo salutis is found in Rom 8:29-30

    4. Also it should be noted that in the Cist view, each step leads inevitably to the next. In fact, if the each does not lead inevitably to the other in Rom 8:29-30, then the promise of vs 28 makes little sense. No longer can one say with certainty that God will work all things together for good for those called according to His purpose if the line of events in vs. 29-30 are not viewed as following inevitably from each other.
     
    #8 dwmoeller1, Mar 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2007
  9. johnp.

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    Regeneration must come before hearing otherwise no seed would take root. In fact the Devil snatches away the seed that falls on stoney ground. The soil must be good otherwise the call is ineffectual. The heart must be fleshy and not made of granite.

    1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    To repent is to be born again and being born again is to believe and belief is faith.

    The diagram is worse than before skypair.

    john.
     
  10. skypair

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    dw...

    ...

    Thanks for the feedback! :D I like the way you order the "steps" from foreknow to glorification -- but we been through that before.

    Notice the difference in where "HS regeneration" comes in under each paradigm.

    Doesn't a diagram emphasize this? Notice where one becomes "elect" in each.

    Note the difference in "election" in each case.

    RE: belief and faith -- yeah, both come before salvation BUT did you notice that free will sees a "belief test" precedes faith given by God? What is your opinion of that?

    I will put glorification on there -- that's good! I agree regarding Rom 8:29-30.

    skypair
     
  11. skypair

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    That is one error of Calvinism -- to equate 1Cor 2:14, hearing "spiritual things," to hearing the gospel. Paul was not saying that. "Spiritual things" are the "hidden wisdom of God." The gospel is the REVEALED wisdom of God.

    1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    I showed that -- repent -> death and resurrection. As to your second assertion -- "born again is to believe and belief is faith" -- not true. That is one thing the diagram hopefully deomonstrates graphically! Believe is something WE do -- faith is what God gives. Heb 11:6 -- " But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God [no "faith" yet] must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

    Faith is the REWARD for passing the "belief test," john. I believe the diagram shows that pretty well -- if only I could get those dots outta there!

    skypair
     
  12. dwmoeller1

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    I don't know what the diagram emphasizes...I simply couldn't figure it out. :)

    Faith comes before salvation? Isn't that different than what you said before in the other thread?

    As to the 'belief test', I believe you will find very few free-willers who agree with you on that one. More importantly though, where do you find that in Scripture?

    Good...then there can be no question that predestination precedes belief/faith/salvation.
     
  13. dwmoeller1

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    Ahh...I finally understand what you were getting at with that verse. Ok, you are correct, that passage is speaking of 'higher' or 'hidden' things of God which Paul could not teach to the Corinthians because they were still carnal and not mature.

    However, Cism would not rely on that concept to make their point. Instead, they would refer to chapter one of the same book:
    18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
    “ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
    And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

    20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


    So, as we can see, even the revealed gospel of Christ is no more acceptable to man than the hidden things of God. Even the simple revealed wisdom of God is foolishness to the ones who are not called. Only to the called does the gospel come as power and wisdom. To all others, it is as opaque as any hidden mystery of God.

    That passage uses faith and believe as synonyms - believe is the verb form of faith. That is the only difference between the two.

    Also this verse totally destroys your claim that faith is a reward of belief. Oooops gotta run. An explanation on why in a bit....
     
  14. dwmoeller1

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    1. God is a rewarder of them that seek Him
    2. A reward implies that the giver was pleased with the receiver
    3. Thus, God must be pleased with the them that diligently seek Him

    4. One can only please God by means of faith
    5. He is pleased with those who seek Him
    6. Therefore, those who seek Him must have faith

    7. a condition must precede the conclusion resulting from that condition
    8. God rewards (conclusion) those who seek Him (condition)
    9. Therefore seeking precedes the reward

    10. seeking God precedes the reward God gives
    11. those who seek Him have faith
    12. therefore, faith precedes the reward

    If faith precedes the reward (as is evident from the verse), faith cannot be the rewards. The natural reading therefore, would be that faith and believe are noun/verb forms of the same concept.

    Thus, the logic of passage boils down to this:
    One cannot please God without faith - one must approach God in faith, (ie. believing that He is and that He rewards those who seek Him).

    In fact, taking it one step further, we can see that the last two things are the essense of what writer of Hebrews gives as the definition of faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for (ie. hope in the fact that God rewards those who seek Him), the evidence of things not seen (ie. evidence that God, though unseen, is).
     
  15. johnp.

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    He is and He also says RO 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

    If a man does it is because God is causing him to seek that which he hates by nature and if he does that it is evidence of a new nature.

    Faith pleases God. MT 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
    MT 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

    Those that seek Him are those He loves, those He draws to Christ.

    HEB 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
    This is faith but it's the top end, a maturing point. If some have little faith it can be increased by asking for an increase.

    So if belief is different from faith belief just isn't pleasing to God and it will be belief that sends one to Hell? :)

    john.
     
  16. skypair

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    dw,

    We'll see who responds from he free will side as to whether they see a "belief test." I think that all of them have responded to God believing only what He said in His word, doing what He said, and that He rewarded them with faith.

    Where is that in scripture? Almost every page! Noah believed God -- began building the ark -- God rewarded him with faith to finish the task.

    Here's the difference between belief and faith (you've probably heard it before but discount it now as antiCalvinist propaganda). The difference between believing a chair will bear your weight and having faith that it will is the "belief test" of sitting in it. God asks us not just to believe in Him but to put our trust in Him, right? To do as Paul says, "which ye have RECEIVED and wherein ye STAND" 1Cor 15:2 In the diagram case, I call the test "repentance" in that the test is die to self-righteousness and receive the resurrection and righteousness of God.

    skypair
     
  17. skypair

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    dw,

    I don't see 1Cor 1:18-25 saying all that you make it out to say. Yes, preaching is foolishness TODAY to those who are perishing today -- but it may not be foolishness to those same people tomorrow.

    What is the key? It's BELIEVING, 1:21. The fact that they believe makes the not either Jews or Greeks -- "to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called [believers, right], both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." We don't know who in the audience is "called" in the Calvinist sense -- not at all! And surely Paul wouldn't have the cahones to say no one of the "elect" that heard would be called later. But we know who the believers are that Paul is talking about. They have already manifested themselves by responding, right?

    skypair
     
  18. skypair

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    That is more along the lines of Calvinist appeal than what dw offers. And it is true that no man of himself understands God or seeks Him. But the Bible tells us time and again that God reveals Himself to man -- to ALL man! That is when man is expected to seek God as Heb 11:6 says he MUST!

    Seeking is evidence of a "new nature?" Is that what you call evidence of "regeneration?" Is the one seeking already "elect" and assured of salvation, then?

    The disciples were working on an OT premise -- that sacrifices and offerings were pleasing to God. Jesus said, "No, it is the faith behind those works that pleases God." I am sure you agree with this.

    It will be "belief in vain," 1Cor 15:3 It will be untested and unrewarded and, yes, condemnatory in that you knew but didn't obey.

    skypair
     
  19. Allan

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    Belief and Faith ARE the same except in the fact that one is a noun and the other a verb.

    However, the whole 'Beilief test' thing isn't a separte issue of - is it belief OR faith. But the fact the unless you excersize (believe) your faith (noun) or better that which you have faith in (Jesus) it is not truely a faith you have. Clear as mud?

    You can not believe unless you have faith. The act of believing does not proceed from nothing and form into something, but comes forth from the object in which our faith resides.

    It is like this: one claims to have believed in Christ but walks away. We see they never had placed their faith IN Christ. Why? Because they had nothing to show from which those actions of one who has placed their faith in something displays. It was empty and in vain.

    They are not only synonymous with each other but you can not have one without the other.
     
  20. johnp.

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    Hello skypair.

    Where are you getting it from? Did Noah not have faith to begin?
    What was Noah's reward? To stay afloat in a stinking boat instead of dying and being with God? Some reward.

    There is no difference. It is an invention.

    I do not view things in those terms. I believe a thing is scriptural or unscriptural. Your anti-Calvinism is of no concern to me, ISA 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

    If you sit in a chair you have no faith in you deserve everything you get. :)

    Free will is self-righteousness isn't it? It is your choice that causes your transformation into a son of God isn't it? You are the initiator. The one who saves you, your choice saved you. This you haven't surrendered.
    To believe is to trust.

    RO 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.


    Scripture you mean?

    That is right.

    Why? Does He not know who is going to Hell? :) How can God say that the anti-Christ is to be thrown into the fire yet He reveals Himself to him because He wants him saved? What of the prophesy? ...None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. Judas died to fulfill prophecy. Did Jesus reveal Himself to Judas? Let him with ears hear.

    That is unscriptural. RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
    The bible declares that those who die without hearing the word of God perish. The bible acknowledges the fact that all men do not hear the word of God.

    Not necessarily assured. His people are to seek Him and they will find Him. That has nothing to do with Him having found you. He's installed Himself way before we know it. He needs no permission to occupy His own Temple, that is what His Temple was built for. :)

    MT 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?

    His people are commanded to seek Him with the promise of finding Him.

    The premise the disciples were working on as nothing to do with it. They asked who could be saved. Jesus replied, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

    So if belief is different from faith belief just isn't pleasing to God and it will be belief that sends one to Hell?

    You jest? Condemned for belief? How can one cash this belief in for faith before it becomes the death of us? Is it by believing or what? What is an untested belief? Either you believe a thing or not, how does one test it into faith? By works? :)

    john.
     

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