Salvation of the Soul (Page One)

Posted by Steaver

Hi Steaver. No assumption here. I agree with you. I just wanted confirmation of your position. Thanks!:thumbs:

 

Posted by J. Jump

A "true Christian" is one whose life reflects the acceptance of Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. They have faith that Christ is who and what He says He is, and they are willing to place their life in His hands.

What is faith?

FAITH is believing and seeking God.
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards whose who earnestly seek him."-Hebrews 11:6 NIV

FAITH obeys and endures. The whole of Hebrews 11 attests to it.

Living faith is the mark of sanctification of the believer. This living faith is always a by-product of justification and the Bible does give example after example of it.

What I mean by "true Christian" is someone that has not only head knowledge of the truth, but has experienced the heart change(change of nature)that accompanies it.
James is not commanding us to live a sanctified life. He is admonishing us to allow Christ to completely control us, therby living the ultimate sanctified life.

Scripture is easy to understand in all areas if we allow the Holy Spirit to do the "driving."

 

What is the soul?

This link explains it better than I could.:godisgood:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/tonyqa/tc00-107.htm

 

You have to clear up the "lost but still saved anyway" doctrine - from scripture to make this work.

In Christ,

Bob

 

J Jump has this idea about being soul lost but still spirit saved.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Amy welcome to our discussion. I am not saying the spirit is saved, but the soul is yet to be saved, that is what the Bible says. And we can either believe it or we can try and dodge the texts to believe what we want to believe.

As far as the verse that you quoted, it is a great verse. It shows us that we are a tri-part being not a bi-part being as a number in Christendom would have us believe, but you missed highlighting a key word in that verse and that is the word "may."

This is a subjunctive in the Greek, which means it may or may not happen. It is not a guarantee. The Bible tells us that there are going to be many that stand before The Judge with blame on that day, because they didn't allow the Holy Spirit to sanctify them completely.

Please feel free to ask any questions about this subject if you want to know more.

 

Steaver until you can come up with something better than this I think we are done. I am not the one saying James didn't say receive when it is plainly in the text.

I dealt with engrafted, I believe in my last post, so until you can prove that receive really doesn't mean receive, becuase James did say that even though you think he didn't we can not go any further.

If the word has been engrated into me at the very moment I believe then there would be no need for me to study. I don't know very many people, including myself that are going to follow along on this point. The entire word has not been engrafted into you.

But as I have said in the past and I will say again. Whether the whole word is engrafted into you or not, it still does not prove your point that the soul is saved, because James told them to receive this word. They were hearers of the word, but not doers of the word, so the engrafted word was useless to them. But James said if you would receive the engrafted word it is able to save your souls.

I honestly don't know why you are struggling so much with a simple statement. James said it is ABLE to save your souls. Why would he say it is able to do something if that something had already been done.

Bottom line is the simple reading of this text with no re-writing says our souls are not saved yet. We can believe what the text says are we can try to dance around it to make some other theology fit. I'm going to stick with the plain reading of the text until you can show me that receive doesn't mean receive and that able means already done.

Steaver you continue to amaze me. I have considered your explanation for James 1:21, and it leaks like a sieve.

As for Paul and John they are not talking about the same thing. James commands his audience to receive, but Pauls audience has already received. Notice that one is present tense and one is past tense. That means they are different. Do you see the difference? Do you see that you are comparing apples and oranges here?

Like I said we are pretty much done Steaver until you can show me how receive doesn't mean receive and how able means already done.

 

That's not what Scripture says. Scripture says those that believe are saved, not those that believe and reflect.

There is a difference between having faith in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, and Jesus as the Christ, the Annointed One, Messiah and King.

With all due respect you are confusing eternally saving faith and sanctifying faith. The book of Hebrews is speaking of faith "after" eternal salvation has been complete.

EXACTLY. Again this has been my whole point the entire time. We are not talking about eternal saving faith we are talking about sanctifying faith. They are not the same thing. And just because you have faith that eternally saves you does not mean that you will have faith that sanctifies you. And James tells us that even if you do have that faith, but it doesn't motivate you to the good works you were saved for then it is a dead faith that will not save you.

Again Scripture just says we have to believe to be saved. Anything that adds to or takes away from that is outside the bounds of Scripture. A Christian (there is no such thing as a "true" Christian and a "false" Christian) is a person that has believed in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who shed His blood and died on behalf of that individual, who is a sinner. That's it. Nothing else.

Sorry, but the language of the text does not support your statment. James 1:21 is a command. James says receive. That's not a suggestion, but an imperitive. It is a command.

I think he does do some admonishing, but to say that we are not commanded to live a sanctified life is to fall short of what Scripture says. God says be ye holy as I am Holy! That's not a suggestion. That's a command.

 

Bob have you not been following this thread? That is what this whole thing has been about. James 1:21 alone shows us that the soul is not saved, because he said by receiving the engrafted word it is ABLE to save your souls. That means the soul is not in a saved state even though they are saved. There are only three parts to man, a body, soul and spirit. We know that our bodies are not going to be saved until after death or after the rapture. James 1:21 tells us that our souls are not saved yet, so that elimiates two out of the three options, so by default guess what "was" saved in these individuals?

 

The problem is that James does not say "I am just writing to those whose SPIRIT is saved but SOUL is NOT saved".

The idea of "spirit saved while SOUL not saved" can be found clearly on this thread STATED by posters but NEVER in scripture.

you have to ASSUME that James MEANT to say "is able to SAVE your soul but of course your spirit is ALREADY saved" -- even though it is not in James 1 at all.

When Scripture says that "Christ is able to save to the uttermost" it is NOT saying "you are not saved by Christ for it is something he has yet to do -- to save you as stated". You insert that "IS ABLE TO SAVE the soul" means "ALL of you have unsaved souls that are reading this text". Such is not the case - James is not writing and saying "I know you all have unsaved souls so let me tell you how to get them saved" rather he is affirming the Christian belief in salvation and the mechanism by which it works.

Notice what Paul said to Timothy about Scripture in 2Tim 3:15-16 "Scripture" IS sufficient to lead to salvation - was not a way of telling Timohty "you are not yet saved"!!

In each instance you have admitted that it is NOT in the text so you have to INSERT it based on "some other text" as yet unquoted.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I'm talking about sanctification, not justification.

I'm talking about Jesus Christ. Lord and Savior. How much clearer does someone have to be?

I've read some of your posts over the last several months. Judging by what I've read, I could tell you a dog has four legs and you would find a way to disagree with it. You do a good job of turning Scripture into a cryptic puzzle without using any Scripture to do it.

 

How can you be talking about sanctification when you were talking about "true" Christians being ones that believed in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. That's not sanctification that is eternal justification. Sanctification is accept Jesus as the Christ, the Lord, Annointed One, King, Messiah. The two are not the same thing.

Again when you speak you try to combine the two. And unfortunately Christendom does the same thing. Accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord are not the same thing and most generally don't occur at the same time.

That's a comical statement seeing as I'm the one that is trying to get people to just read the text and don't add anything into it. This particular Scripture text is not a puzzle at all. It's a simple statement in English that one ought to understand. The problem is it flies in the face of what a good portion of Christendom teaches. So instead of eating crow Christendom just continues to dance around this passage and others like it, adding to and taking away as they see fit.

Receive means receive and able means able not already done. It really is that simple folks.

 

The "spirit saved while soul not saved" is conjecture not scritpure.

The difference is huge!

 

That's exactly what he is saying, Amy. Your interpretation is far and away the correct one. Let me make a position statement at this point:

Jump's is a tragic misinterpretation of scripture. Those who believe it believe that the spirit is saved, but the "soul" has a good chance of punishment. Someone who doesn't have a clue dreamed that one up, and Jump has 'jumped' on the bandwagon. I hope he isn't a pastor, evangelist, or Sunday School teacher!

Soul, in context, simply means "you". In Jump's belief system, part of "you" will be saved, but another part may end up in hell.

Read the "God's Word" translation of James 1:21 :

So get rid of all immoral behavior and all the wicked things you do. Humbly accept the word that God has placed in you. This word can save you.

"You", here, is plural, meaning "all of you." In other translations, "your soul" is literally "you, all of you," as well.

ψυχας soul, noun - accusative plural feminine
psuche psoo-khay'
life, mind, us, you, you all.

So what does "save" mean, in context? Right up front, it has zero, zilch, nada to do with salvation, in this context.

To whom is James speaking? The 12 Tribes of the dispersion. Who were they? They were "Beloved Brethren" of James, a Jewish Christian. They were Jewish Christians. What were they be asked to do? Stay strong in the faith! James tells them to cease from their sinful behavior! The result? God's Word will sustain them once their fellowship with Him is restored! That is the meaning of "save" in this context: lift them out of the rut they are in, and sustain their fellowship with Him.

"Soul" is not some sort of ethereal, invisible, ghostly something or other floating around inside the body. "Soul" is the person. It is mind, will, and emotions, the product of brain. The brain is an accumulation of learning, of learned behaviors, attitudes, principles, conclusions, pre-conceived notions and ideas. It is the intellect, the rational capability in all of us. It is separate and apart from the spirit that is imparted to every person the moment they receive Christ as Savior and Lord.

It is the imparted spirit that communicates with God, that strives to overcome the soul, the soulish behavior, the "natural man" in all of us. In the final analysis, it is the spirit within that is sealed and saved for eternity. The body that we are reunited with at the Rapture, or when He calls for us, will not house the old soulish brain. Never happen!

Therefore, when James says "save your souls" he is simply saying that God's Word will "restore and sustain all of you." Who is "all of you"? The 12 Tribes of the dispersion, who had lapsed into sin.

If we apply this scripture to Gentile Christians, then do we mean that the soul, the mind, the mental, the sinful nature, the human nature, the natural man can be saved? No! In context, for a Gentile Christian, James would be saying that one who has surrendered to Christ will be sustained in Him through the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, see 1 John 1:9.

Read all of James 4. Here we clearly see what James is arguing against. The soulish behavior of these Jewish believers in Christ! Now read James 5:19-20.

Whether Jewish Christian or Gentile Christian, we are One in Christ. The spirit within battles daily with the soul in an effort to overcome our sinful nature. It is a battle that will go on until the Rapture, or until He calls us home. There will be no soulish, sinful nature or behavior in Heaven, guaranteed!

 

Which brings up perhaps the most important question - where did this idea come from? What pastor/teacher/book/denomination teaches it?

I have to admit that this is the first time I have taken a serious look at it. J. J has a web site that addresses it - but I don't know that they actually came up with it in the first place. Where did it come from? Who first came up with this solution for OSAS?

In Christ,

Bob

 

"Can that faith SAVE him" -- how many places in the NT is "FAITH" and "SAVE" used in that connection where it is NOT talking about the Gospel?

Zero?

correct - zero!

ALL scripture is given by inspiriation from God AND is profitable for doctrine. That means we are going to have to accept James as well.

Jim had it right at one point on this thread.

In Christ,

Bob