Sanctification: Entire or Progressive?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by BibleBob, Jan 6, 2003.

  1. BibleBob

    BibleBob
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    Do Baptist believe more in entire sanctification or progressive sanctification? And I don't know if this will start a debate or anything, but which is biblically correct?
    In Christ,
    Bob
     
  2. swaimj

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    There are different aspects to sanctification.

    Positionally, we are completely sanctified at salvation, that is we are set apart to God at salvation and God views us as clothed in the righteousnes of Christ.

    As Christians, we are in the process of sanctification during this life-time. God is at work in our lives to change us and make us more like him.

    Prospectively, we will one day be fully sanctified when we see Christ. "We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is".
     
  3. romanbear

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    Hi Swaimj; [​IMG]
    I agree with what you say.Amen [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Romanbear
    Peace

    [ January 06, 2003, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: romanbear ]
     
  4. BibleBob

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    Yea, but from what i've read some take it to be that we become sinlesss here on earth and can be literally perfect where we do not sin. That is the impression I got from some things i've read about entire sanctification, though I could be wrong. I was just curious. I came accross it reading the articles of faith of the Church of the Nazarene seeing how it differed rom Baptist theology...seems to quite a bit since they're Free Methodist basically. Newayz, enough rambling on my part. Thx for the input.

    In Christ,
    Bob
     
  5. swaimj

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    No one can be entirely sanctified in this lifetime. Check out I John 1:8.
     
  6. Me2

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    I understand the glorification and justification of some but the difference is those who continue through the process of sanctification...those who desire a further exploration.

    I also agree with the two aspects of sanctification..positionally and experientially..
    although every individual who lives by faith, does not agree to continue in a life based on growth and understanding.

    the next question should be..If the sanctification process is followed by Few..in our lifetime.
    and It requires sacrifice..a desire to know...which takes time and effort.

    those who do not desire to explore the path of sanctification but yet are rewarded by being placed there at salvation "positionally"...

    *how do they catch up to this position experientally ?
    (seeing that this process requires personal involvement and understanding to know)

    ...and if they only have this lifetime to explore such possibilities (through resistance or sin).
    as some believe and report. How can they know without understanding or wisdom.

    Is the "program" of sanctification progressive...and can the possibility of a continuation of these lessons of sanctification continue for some, in the next age(s) to come.

    While others... (as Im referring to the people who decided not to become sanctified experientially) Can Be just beginning..

    I guess Im trying to say...I believe in Progressive Sanctification, as there can never be an end of learning to understand...God.

    Me2
     
  7. Doc Yankum

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    Amen, Swaimj. I too believe we are set aside for service at salvation, but sanctification in its truest sense is a progressive work. Peter adresses this in 2 Peter 1:5-8. The process begins with our faith in Christ to the salvation of our souls and ends in the perfect love Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 13:10.
     
  8. Abiyah

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    My husband belongs to a Nazarene church.
    Please understand that what is written on their
    site is not what all of their churches and/or
    pastors and/or teachers teach.

    At my husband's church, the adult Sunday
    school teacher readily accepts that both he and
    other believers sin. Since I rarely go there, I did
    not know how the pastor taught sin, but he said
    in his sermon, my last time there, that he sins.
    I think they are closer to Baptist theology than
    either would want to admit.

    Previous to where I now attend, I attended for over
    50 years a holiness church, where they taught
    entire sanctification. Progressive sanctification
    was not even broached in my hearing until @1977,
    when a young man who had come in from another
    denomination began to preach. I had only heard it
    previously on a Baptist radio station in town and at
    my children's Baptist school.

    This particular church I blonged to taught that be-
    lievers could and did live perfectly sinless lives. I
    was fooled into believing I was the only one who
    often failed this, until 1988, when move brought me
    to this town. Then the lives of those in that church
    showed me the greatest argument that believers
    do, indeed, sin; all the while, they were the ones
    who were the most persistent and loudest re living
    sinless lives.

    The way they can teach this, however, is that they
    hold to a different definition of sin. Baptists in
    general teach a far wider definition, while the holi-
    nessdefinition does not even come close to encir-
    cling the whole spectrum of sin.
     
  9. Me2

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    Hi Abiyah,

    There are three children that are sleeping. A parent watches over them.

    One of the children wakes up and asks for a glass of water..The parent gives the child the water..and starts a conversation with the child...speaking about stories that are interesting and exciting about the childs future and about the love of the parent for their child.

    A second child wakes and asks for water..The parent replies..the child finds sleep more pleasing. and returns back to their slumbers.

    The third child sleeps unaware of any activity between the waken children and their parent.

    The parent continues to speak to the child that is still awake...

    and at the appointed time..The parent awakens the other two sleeping children..

    The child that was awaken in the night, and was speaking with the parent begins to tell the other children what was told them by the parent while they slept.

    The child that woke in the night and returned back to sleep remembers nothing that previously occurred. also the third child that slept knew nothing of what occurred.

    That is what sanctification is all about...it has meaning when the others are awaken..
    theres a story to be told. We we're chosen to be set aside and when the others are
    awaken..The parent is pleased to allow the child to tell the stories to the other children.

    We will be the only ones who remember what was told to us in the middle of the night....
    And God will give to us as an inheritance..what we were taught and the pleasure of expressing that experience to others.

    "What we know about who our God Is , and the plans he has in store for us."

    That is a way in which I explain partial sanctification...just a little story told to us in the middle of the night.

    We will all get the experience the reality of the truths of the stories when we're fully awake.
    Only we will have a reference to allow us a more focused and intimate meaning.

    The stories our parents told us while everyone else slept.

    Me2
     
  10. Abiyah

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    So are you basically telling me that there are a
    chosen few who are privy to the information, and
    the rest are like the sleeping virgins without oil
    in their lamps, left in the cold and dark, unwilling
    and unable to come to this secret knowledge?

    8o)

    Please pardon me, Me2. I like plain English and
    have an inordinate distaste for the arts of the
    metaphor and simile.

    [ January 07, 2003, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  11. Me2

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    Thats the short and sweet version.

    The reasons are various why many dont follow the path of sanctification.
    as told in 1 John... babies, children, young men and fathers..

    Some dont care for personally knowing Jesus Christ as Lord. but I dont press the issues.

    I just try to arrive at an agreeable conclusion, which everyone will arive at... eventually.

    It is clearly evident that many are called, few chosen...It makes sense.

    ...the virgins parable was about the differences of the two groups in the realms of faith.
    One group could enter into the "realms of heaven" or have an intimate relationship with God.
    while the other group lacked faith...or oil.

    Just as the leap is great from believing Jesus as lord, as opposed to those who only accept by faith the knowledge of jesus as their propitiator.

    its like the difference of a child and a young man in 1 john. or as you stated it, the wise and unwise virgins. one had faith and the other is lacking.

    Theres a lot of folks throughout history that will pass on their experiences or witness in the ages to come. Some will shine or have brighter contenances than others...just a matter of knowing and living with what God was telling them, who they and their God really are.

    While unfortunately..others lives will not be too memorable to want to be remembered.
    or repeated to others. wood, hay and stubble.

    Keep in mind..in a million years..these memories here on this earth will not compare with what we will have experienced on the New Earth...These meomries that we collect today will end up becoming only personal testaments of who we are to self ..here and now.

    Me2
     
  12. Abiyah

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    Yes, Me2, as a student of the Bible, I am quite
    aware of the meaning o the parable of the virgins.
    8o)

    So I wonder--are you one of the sanctified? How
    did you qualify? How did you become sanctified?
    How do you know you are sanctified? Who gave
    you the secret knowledge? What is your basic
    definition of sanctification? Did you stop sinning,
    or are you not of that belief? What is your definition
    of sin?

    Please pardon all my questions; I have never heard
    of it expressed this way before, and I am curious.

    Having been around people who believed in a
    crisis experience of sanctification, I have learned
    that there are many beliefs in its regard. I am, in
    fact, sure that the people in the church we be-
    longed to would tell you that I and my family
    members are not sanctified because we all left
    that church. My son-in-law has even received
    letters telling him he needs to be saved again.
    Of course, this was not the only second-blessing
    church I have been around.

    One more question: Can you tell if someone else
    is sanctified? What evidence would you consider?

    [ January 07, 2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  13. Me2

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    Sanctification is based around

    Accepting God as Soveriegn and absolute Provider in Your Life and..
    God is Unconditional Love.

    It is a series of tests designed which slowly draw you to himself.
    test that introduce obsticals which must be withstood or overcome.
    tests that completely command the will to submit to Gods control totally

    and Unconditional (Agape) Love...
    How does one learn the capacity to offer mercy and forgiveness to others.
    What is the total sum required of you to others.

    This is where submission to God become an integral part of your growth.
    To accept the understanding of His Character and reasons why his provisions and desires for all to be drawn to him.

    But that he uses us as the mediator between others and his provisions..
    His mercy and Love and forgiveness....

    His methods are the breaking down of our own will and desires and turns our attention from self to accepting the broken and rebellious lives of others. to see them and accept them as equal to ourselves. all needing the same provisions. mercy and forgiveness. A Loving God.

    Thats requires perculiar people. People who are continually being broken yet desiring the highest and best for others. A people who desires that all receive the provisions of their heavenly father.. which is infinite Love

    That takes a lifetime and them some more..

    Now the process and levels of sanctification have earmarks that are easily descerned.
    First is Love..Love of brothers, Neighbors, and yes...even enemies...
    Love for all to receive the provisions of the creator as all should as humans.
    Do we see the acceptance of others or critisize. The judging..for what end?.. or can we get past the faults and discover the needed provisions..the forgiveness and mercy of others.

    Do you Know more..no maybe I do...WHO CARES...Do you Know God Love You?

    and the other is the Sovereignty of God...or Is Jesus Your LORD ?...

    and theres the participants....
    the Flesh, devil and world..and the battle of the self..the submission for control.
    The young man...the soldier with his armour and sword. the hunter gatherer.
    The conquerer..test, try, hold your ground, stand.

    and the finality of Humankind..The Parent..The father..turning from fighting for self and learning for self and gathering for self to a more placid environment of returning back to others..the agape love wanting to give back to others...just like santa...give, teach, support.

    theres Earmarks if your eyes are opened..to the the overcomers..but theres lack..
    theres conflict..there trials that are failed. ...theres rebellion in the pews.
    theres lack of the mercy..the love..the forgiveness..
    Lack of Accepting the REAL sovereignty of God..
    or The proper interpretations and understanding of the Character of God..

    Many interpretations exist now..pick your poison, or watch the battles from the sidelines.
    Oh did I forget to tell you..the battles are already won..if Do you really believe it.?

    Now Watch as God Fights the battles..Go God Go...
    Oh the carnage...the confusion. "Ooh that musta hurt"

    Me..Ill Just Simply say "Thank You" and accept what God Tells ME..Not somebody else.
    and Abiyah...You only Get Saved Once..whether ya believe it or not. Just Say, Thank You.

    He 'll draw you closer if Thats Your desires..By the way "Are those your desires are God whispering in your ear".?..soon everything starts to makes you wonder...

    Me2
     
  14. BibleBob

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    Thx alot for all the input. I don't believe the local Nazarene Church affirms the sinless perfection type doctrine of sanctification. I know this is taking this thread in a slightly new direction, but what are some of your opinions and views on the Nazarene Church or rather how does it compare with Southern Baptist. Well, I could say more, but I must go. I'll add my comments later. May God bless you all!

    Soli deo gloria,
    Bob
     
  15. Abiyah

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    I am very new to the Baptist belief system and
    only learned fairly late last year that there were
    so many divisions in the Baptist churches. I had
    not a clue, until I started looking for a place to
    attend.

    In my town, my very limited opinion is that there
    are many, many Baptist churches and not many
    serious attenders, or there would be services
    other than merely Sunday morning. (! ! !) I will
    count the number of Baptist churches in my
    town and get back to you on this post, but I am
    amazed.

    I counted @ 50 Baptist churches.

    Let me give you what my husband's Nazarene
    church believes in a proverbial nutshell: </font>
    • Salvation by grace</font>
    • Believers do sin but sin must be
      brought to our God in prayer for
      forgivenesss and help</font>
    • Same basic definition of sin as
      any Baptist I know</font>
    • Progressive sanctification</font>
    • Crisis sanctification: a moment
      in time when a believer recognizes
      the need to be a holy vessel set
      apart for our God's use; a giving
      up of the personal will in order to
      serve our God more completely;
      must be actively maintained; does
      not render one sinless; progres-
      sive sanctification continues.</font>
    And the rest is basically what one might expect:
    our Lord's return, His death and bodily resurrec-
    tion, etc.
    I think that in order for me to answer, you would
    have to ask specific questions. Sorry! 8o)

    [ January 08, 2003, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  16. BibleBob

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    One quick question before I have to go. Dos your husbands church believe one can lose their salvation? Thx again.

    In Christ,
    Bob
     
  17. Abiyah

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    Wweelllll, I asked that question of someone there
    quite some time ago and never got a straight
    answer. I got the feeling that their answer, if
    they had given it, would have been something
    like if the person had murdered someone or
    something like that.
     
  18. BibleBob

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    Yea, I;ve never directly asked anyone yet, but in two of their youth meetings the youth pastor spoke about praying the prayer and it "wearing off" a few times when he was younger until it finally stuck and then recently he made a comment about habitual sin being the cause of some people not being Christians anymore. I;m gunna ask directly someday though. I'd like to know for sure. Thx alot though. If I think of anymore questions i'll post, or ask my friend that goes there.

    In Christ,
    Bob
     
  19. awesomedawn

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    Should have been around a couple of thousand (+)years ago! [​IMG]
     
  20. Abiyah

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    Oh, I don't mind our Lord's! His were short,
    sweet, and to the point. Nathan's wasn't bad
    either. 8oD

    When I was younger, I used to read the ones writ-
    ten by others, but I just cannot stand them now.
    This is not against anyone; I just like people to
    say right out what they intend, rather than creating
    fiction in order to make a point.

    When we were going together 16 years ago, my
    husband desperately wanted me to read Hind's
    Feet on High Places
    . I tried to read the first
    page. . . . .

    8oD
     

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