Saturday August 16th event

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Jailminister, Aug 6, 2003.

  1. Jailminister

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    How many of you baptist are going to be in Montgomery Alabama on the 16th to stop the removal of the Ten commandments from the court house. I along with several thousands will be there to protest the wicked Judge Thompson and to support the Hero, Judge Roy Moore. I invite as many of you who can come and tell the government and the ACLU, that a line in the sand has been drawn.
     
  2. Baptist Believer

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    Not me. :rolleyes:

    Because I am both a Baptist and a Christian, I am thankful that the Ten Commandments are being removed from the court house.

    Baptists introduced the concept of separation of church and state to our nation – religious freedom through separation of church and state is our greatest civic and spiritual legacy as Baptists – and it is a bitter irony that “Baptists” are opposed to their own legacy.

    Judge Moore is no hero. He is simply a man who is trying to challenge separation of church and state in order to promote his own religious views.

    The Ten Commandments are for God’s people. The government has no right to promote or enforce the worship of the Jewish and Christian God (the First Commandment) or promote or enforce the banning of graven images (the Second Commandment) or prevent God’s name from being used carelessly or for an evil purpose (the Third Commandment) or even the promotion or enforcement of a ban on labor on the Saturday (the Fourth Commandment).

    True religious freedom requires both freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
     
  3. dianetavegia

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    Jailminister, do you have any printed literature or links to articles about this? We're about 2 hours away and I'd like to share it with concerned friends locally. I had not heard of this rally.

    Diane
     
  4. Jailminister

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    Yes Diane. Go to this website.
    http://www.vision-america.org/

    Baptist believer. There is no separation of church and state. There is only a separation to keep the state out of the churches business. This phoney baloney concept of separation of church and state came out of a wicked supreme court that also took the bible as well as prayer out of schools and allowed the legalization of baby killing.
     
  5. Baptist Believer

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    I know Rick Scarborough, the founder of Vision America, personally. He is woefully misinformed about his Baptist heritage and religious liberty in general.

    I suggest you do your own research in primary sources to get a truer perspective.

    Nonsense!

    It’s time for you to learn a little bit about Baptist history and the history of the U.S. Constitution.

    Please investigate the lives of our Baptist forefathers Roger Williams, John Leland, and Isaac Backus. Furthermore, investigate the writings of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (not just the out-of-context quotes that the religious right likes to throw out).

    Then read the circumstances surrounding the Virginia Bill for Religious Liberty (1786) and see what Jefferson and Madison believed and fought for.

    Then study the history of the Bill of Rights to understand the Baptist struggle to enshrine separation of church and state in our First Amendment of the Constitution.

    Once you do that, go read some of the pivotal Supreme Court decisions regarding religious liberty and see what the justices actually said and how they interpreted the First Amendment. (Again, the religious right people like David Barton are profoundly dishonest when it comes to historical citations and quoting from Supreme Court decisions.)

    ---

    It’s easy to get caught up in the emotion of such a thing, but you need to base what you do on truth and God’s word.
     
  6. Jailminister

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    [Personal attack deleted] I know Rick very well and God has used him mightily. Rick and I have worked side by side on issues. [more personal attack deleted].

    [ August 06, 2003, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]
     
  7. Baptist Believer

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    [Quotation deleted]

    Jailminister: Your name calling merely demonstrates the desperation caused by your ignorance of the subject.

    Brother Rick was a former pastor of mine when he was at Retta Baptist Church in Retta, Texas immediately before he went to Pearland. I hold no grudges against him, but I do know that he operates more out of passion and zeal than knowledge and reason.

    I’ve actually done the work and researched these documents and issues personally from the primary documents. That’s what I’m asking you to do. Neither “liberal theoloions” or “liberal” theologians have anything to do with the historical record. I’m pointing you to objective information and you seem content to try to insult and make wild accusations. That’s hardly a Christian way to respond.

    If you are not interested in knowing the truth and instead insist on preaching and teaching lies about truths that any person can verify for themselves, that’s something you’re going to have to answer to God for.

    I suppose you know that Patrick Henry was violently opposed to the State of Virginia ending a state tax to support the Episcopal Church in Virginia? Baptists worked very hard to fight his influence and finally won the right not to give their money to support the state’s Episcopal Church.

    Patrick Henry is hardly a biblical model for religious liberty. (Of course you would know that except that you are keeping yourself willfully ignorant of the facts.)

    Willful ignorance is profoundly sinful.

    [ August 06, 2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]
     
  8. Jailminister

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    BB, pardon me for calling you a "nut". After reading you rpost, I find you are just right in there with the rest of the world, so I guess that means you are normal. I can see that when you depart this life, wisdonm will go with you, so we better cherish the time you are here with us.

    It is strange how 2 people can read the same thing and yet come away with different conclusions. I guess it is based on what side of the fence you are on.

    Here is some info you might think on, since you do not like Patrick Henry and have worked hard to discredit his sacrifice.

    Most people don’t realize what this nation was like at its beginning. Even as late as 1776 – 150 years after a Christian group we refer to as the Pilgrims moved their church to America, we see the population of our country as: 98 percent Protestant Christians, 1.8 percent Catholic Christians, and .2 of 1 percent Jewish. That means that 99.8% of the people in America in 1776 professed to be Christians.

    Reverend Jonas Clark was the "parson" of a church in a small town called Lexington. In his church parking lot, only a few feet from the church parsonage, the "shot heard around the world" was fired. The people that were killed were members of his congregation. Clark looked down with great anguish at the bodies of those who had died and made this statement: "From this day will be dated the liberty of the world." It began in a church. It began with a pastor that was part of the "Black Regiment" because of the black robes they wore. These pastors preached resounding sermons that resonated throughout New England about the evils of tyranny and the importance of liberty.

    Revolutionary leaders were devout men who could not have been more empathic in their determination that our national policy rested on Scriptural foundation. Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 52 were Orthodox Christians.

    OUR FOUNDING FOREFATHERS PAVE THE WAY BEFORE US:

    After signing the Declaration of Independence, Samuel Adams, who was called the firebrand of the American Revolution, affirmed his obedience to God by stating, "We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom alone men ought to be obedient. From the rising to the setting of the sun may His kingdom come."
    Reverend Doctor John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration of Independence, member of the Continental Congress, described as the "man who shaped the man that shaped America" said, "God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable . . . ." Reverend Witherspoon was also responsible for publishing two American editions of the Bible.

    Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it."

    Other notable Christian signers of the Declaration were: Charles Thompson, who is responsible for the first translation of the Greek Septuagint into English; Dr. Benjamin Rush, founder of the first Bible Society in America; Francis Hopkinson, who was responsible for the first American hymnbook; Cesar Rodney, whose home State of Delaware (the first state to ratify the U.S. Constitution) required that officeholders sign a declaration of Christian faith, Thomas Nelson JR, Commander of the Virginia Militia, and Thomas McKean, the man responsible for the first legal commentary on the constitution of the United States. Pennsylvania’s Chief Justice, a founding father, said to a man sentenced to die for treason, "It behooves you most seriously to reflect upon your conduct, to repent of your evil deeds, to be incessant in prayers to the great and merciful God to forgive you your . . . sins."

    John Hancock, president of the Continental Congress, said, "Let us humbly commit our righteous cause to the great Lord of the Universe."

    Governor Morris, who wrote the Constitution in 1787, and wrote in 1790 and in 1791, two commentaries on the Constitution said, "Religion is the solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God."

    William Paterson, a signer of the Constitution, closed his speeches with Proverbs 29:2: "When the righteous rule, the people rejoice. When the wicked rule, the people groan."

    George Mason, father of the Bill of Rights, exclaimed, "My soul I resign into the hands of my Almighty Creator, whose tender mercies are all over His works . . . "

    Nathan Hale, called the "Martyr Spy," came from a solid Christian foundation and upbringing. He is best remembered for his last words, prior to laying down his life for God and country at the young age of twenty-one, "I only regret that I have but one life to loose for my country."

    Two other founding fathers of our nation that expressed their fervent Christian beliefs were Roger Sherman and Charles Cotesworth Pinckney. Alexander Hamilton could also be added to that list.

    John Jay, first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court wrote, "Unto Him who is the Author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved Son."

    James Wilson, George Washington’s appointment to the Supreme Court stated, "Christianity is part of the common-law."

    Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story (appointed by President James Madison) called America a "Christian country."

    Statesman Daniel Webster warned of political disaster. He stated, "If we and our posterity neglect religious instruction and authority . . . no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us." Webster said on December 22,1820, observing the 200th anniversary of the landing of the Pilgrims at Plymouth, Massachusetts, "Let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers brought hither their high veneration of the Christian religion."

    French historian Alex de Tocqueville, author of "Democracy in America" in 1835, wrote, "There is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America."

    Noah Webster, who literally wrote the English dictionary claimed, "The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all civil Constitutions and laws."

    Patrick Henry, a Christian patriot, golden tongued orator of the Revolutionary period, and the only U.S. Governor to be elected and reelected five times said in a celebrated speech before the Revolutionary War, "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" (another quote from Henry, even though I know you don't like him BB)

    One of the great slogans of the American Revolution was "No King but King Jesus!"
    In 1799 the Supreme Court in Maryland ruled: "By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon equal footing, and they are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty."

    The founding fathers expected officeholders to be Christians.While denominational affiliation didn’t matter, a belief in God and the Bible was paramount. Nine of the thirteen colonies had written constitutions. Many of them required officeholders to sign a declaration that amounted to a statement of faith. The Delaware Constitution of 1776 is a perfect example. Everyone appointed to public office had to say: "I do profess faith in God the Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed forevermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration."

    Two historians at the University of Houston did a 10-year study of the ideas that shaped our republic. They started with 15,000 documents from the Colonial era, which were boiled down to 3,154 statements. The three most quoted individuals were French philosopher Montesquieu (8.3 percent), English jurist William Blackstone (7.9 percent) and English philosopher John Locke (2.9 percent). But Biblical citations dwarfed them all. Ninety-four percent of the founding fathers quotes were based on the Bible--34 percent directly from its pages and 60 percent from men who had used the Bible to arrive at their conclusions.

    The Bible is the foundation upon which our nation was built. A hundred and nineteen of the first schools, including Harvard, Princeton, Dartmouth, and Yale, were established on the Word of God and dedicated to the Lordship of Christ and for the training of disciples of the Lord. As late as 1850 Christians ran virtually every newspaper in this country. The law and the federal and local judiciaries were either all Christians or Jewish.

    The Continental Congress, in 1777, recommended and approved that the Committee of Commerce "import 20,000 Bibles from Holland, Scotland, or elsewhere," because of the great need of the American people and the great shortage caused by the interruption of trade with England by the Revolutionary War.

    PRIORITIES OF OUR EARLY U.S. PRESIDENTS:

    On April 30,1789, the first President of the United States, George Washington, took the oath of office with his hand on the Bible opened to Deuteronomy 6. In his first inaugural address, President Washington acknowledged God for the reason for America’s birth: "It would be improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplication to that Almighty Being. . . . No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than people of the United States. . . . We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained." President Washington’s inaugural address concluded with a church service at Saint Paul’s Chapel, led by the chaplains of Congress.
    President Washington professed his Christian faith publicly in many of his speeches and writings. "True religion offers to government its surest support," Washington said. "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." His personal prayer book, written in his own handwriting, declares: "O most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ my merciful loving Father, I acknowledge and confess my guilt, in the week and imperfect performance of the duties of this day." It is factual that President Washington knelt and prayed and read the Bible for one hour every day. John Marshall, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court described Washington: "Without making ostentatious professions of religion, he was a sincere believer in the Christian faith, and a truly devout man."

    John Adams, our second president, said, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government or any other."

    Even Thomas Jefferson, third president, and one who certainly did not hold to all the traditional doctrines of Christianity, placed the Bible and Isaac Watt’s Book of Psalms and Hymns in the District of Columbia’s public schools. Jefferson declared religion: "Deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support."

    James Madison, fourth president of the United States and referred to as the "Father of the Constitution," stated, "The belief in a God All Powerful, wise and good, is essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man."

    John Quincy Adams, sixth President of the United States and "Chief Architect" of the Constitution said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

    Andrew Jackson, our seventh president claimed (referring to the Bible) "That book, sir, is the rock on which our republic stands."

    A QUICK TOUR OF OUR CAPITOL REMINDS US THAT THIS NATION WAS BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATIONS OF CHRISTIAN BELIEF.
    The Supreme Court building portrays Moses holding the Ten Commandments through which the voice of God thunders "Thou shalt not murder."
    The Capitol Rotunda contains eight massive oil paintings, each depicting a major event in history. Four of these paintings portray Jesus Christ and the Bible: 1) Columbus landing on the shores of the New World, and holding high the cross of Jesus Christ, 2) a group of Dutch pilgrims gathered around a large, opened Bible, 3) a cross being planted in the soil, commemorating the discovery of the Mississippi River by the Explorer De Soto, and 4) the Christian baptism of the Indian convert Pocahontas.
    Statuary Hall contains life size statues of famous citizens that have been given by individual states. Medical missionary Marcus Whitman stands big as life, holding a Bible. Another statue is of missionary Junipero Serra, who founded the missions of Los Angeles, San Francisco, Montery and San Diego. Illinois sent a statue of Francis Willard, an associate of the evangelist Dwight L. Moody.
    Inscribed on the walls of the Library of Congress are quotes honoring the study of art, the wall is etched with "Nature is the art of God." A quote honoring Science says, "The heavens declare the glory of God." An inspiration honoring religion is Micah 6:8, "What doth the Lord require of thee but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God."
    On a wall in the Jefferson Memorial we read, "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated without His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice sleep forever."
    As you climb the steps inside the Washington Monument you will notice stones with inscriptions on them. Some of them are, "Search the Scriptures" – "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it" – "The memory of the just is blessed" – "Holiness to the Lord" – and the top which says "Praise be to God!"
    Inscribed on the north wall of the Lincoln Memorial is the Presidents second inaugural address. Lincoln feared that God would not be satisfied until every drop of blood drawn by the lash is repaid by another drop of blood drawn by the sword.
    Are these inscriptions just empty words, nostalgic sayings that no longer describe the ideals of our nation’s government? Consider the message of another inscription, this one at the base of a large statute entitled "Heritage," which is outside the main entrance of the National Archives. It reads: "The heritage of the past is the seed that brings forth the harvest of the future."
    No seed flourishes if it is not cultivated.

    These facts of our national history, quotations, monuments, paintings, and inscriptions shout through the generations that the highest values of these United States are firmly founded in the God of truth and the Christian faith.

    BB, maybe it is you who need to go back and study.
     
  9. Terry_Herrington

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    BB, you are wasting your time. People like Jailminister have already made up their mind and will not listen to the truth.

    Separation of church and state is a good thing, both for the church and the state. Just as I do not want the state to control or legislate how the church does its business, I also do not want the church to control the government.

    These baptist who favor church control of the state would sing a different tune if it was the Episcopalian church that controlled the government.
     
  10. computerjunkie

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    Do you guys have a problem with "In God We Trust" on all of our money? Just curious...
     
  11. dianetavegia

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    Well if they dooooooooo......... they can bundle it up and send it to me and C.J. and we'll be more than happy to dispose of it for you!

    Diane
     
  12. Jailminister

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    Terry said:
    NO TERRY it is you that refuse to accept truth. Your doctrine has cause this nation to go FURTHER away from God. Our forefathers want the state out of religion(like what the Church of England and popery had been like), but not to keep religion out of the state. This can be done and was done for 187 years in this country. Apparently you are to young to remember that. It can be done again, but I am afraid 2 generations of secular humanist teachings have even corupted the minds of so called christians. GOD HELP AMERICA!!!!!
     
  13. RaptureReady

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    NO TERRY it is you that refuse to accept truth. Your doctrine has cause this nation to go FURTHER away from God. Our forefathers want the state out of religion(like what the Church of England and popery had been like), but not to keep religion out of the state. This can be done and was done for 187 years in this country. Apparently you are to young to remember that. It can be done again, but I am afraid 2 generations of secular humanist teachings have even corupted the minds of so called christians. GOD HELP AMERICA!!!!! </font>[/QUOTE]Amen jailminister! Separation of church and state meant that the state stay out of church affairs.

    Sounds to me that these other guys are sitting under liberal teachings.
     
  14. dianetavegia

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    If everybody would follow those '10 Commandments' we wouldn't even need the courts. [​IMG]

    Somebody help me out here.. there's an email that goes around that says it takes X many laws to enforce 10 commands. I don't save those things but it would fit perfectly here. [​IMG]

    Diane
     
  15. Joshua Rhodes

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    True Diane.
     
  16. Glory Bound

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    Too young? Nah.

    That's well and good as long as the religion that you subscribe to is inserted into the state. But how would you feel if someone else's concept of religion was spread throughout the government?

    Say, how about Thomas Jefferson, he was a founding father - who better to decide, right? Jefferson didn't really believe in the miracles of Jesus, and even had his own version of the bible with all the parts he didn't believe cut out? Do you want his version of the "truth" in our schools?
     
  17. Jailminister

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    GB stated:
    GB that is what we have had in the recent past. It is called secular humanism. It is anti-God and it is being taught in all public schools and is pushed in the courts in this country.

    Say, how about Thomas Jefferson, he was a founding father - who better to decide, right? Jefferson didn't really believe in the miracles of Jesus, and even had his own version of the bible with all the parts he didn't believe cut out? Do you want his version of the "truth" in our schools? [/QUOTE]

    You might want to study jefferson a littel closer. He changed quite a bit in his later life. He was the first president of the American Bible Society. Also, he did believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
     
  18. Baptist Believer

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    PART 1 OF 3

    You have a tendency to be very abusive toward those with whom you disagree. It tells much more about you than it does me. :(

    No.

    1.) I am a disciple of Jesus Christ.
    2.) I am a Baptist
    3.) I know a little bit about history
    4.) I know how to research and think for myself so that I am not captive to dishonest people who have an agenda like David Barton.

    Frankly, I don’t think we are reading the same thing. I recommended that you read primary sources (that means the original writings, not someone’s interpretation of the writings or select quote from the writings) instead of the kind of thing you’ve given me here. I recognize much of this from David Barton’s materials, possibly some Tim LaHaye stuff and one or two original items (possibly from Vision America’s web site?).

    We can all be affected by bias when we study primary sources, but we can’t help but be biased when we read heavily-biased material like you’ve presented here. The problem is not reading comprehension, but rather reading the wrong materials.

    Here’s a start for you:

    Read Isaac Backus’ “An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty Against the Oppreffions of the prefent Day” (“…the Oppressions of the Present Day” in modern English)
    http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_2_7.asp

    Read James Madison’s “A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments”
    http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/madison_m&r_1785.html

    Read “The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom (1786)”
    http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html

    I realize that you are desperate to discredit me so that you won’t have to reconsider your position, but you are either being deliberately dishonest or have a serious problem with reading comprehension.

    1.) I like Patrick Henry.

    I merely pointed out that Patrick Henry held some views I disagree with. I am not so simple-minded as to dislike people simply because I disagree with a few of their opinions. I hope you share that attitude. I merely noted that Patrick Henry’s views on religious liberty are at odds with historic Baptist beliefs. Do you wish to pay taxes to the Episcopal Church? Do you believe that Patrick Henry was infallible?

    2.) I have not “worked hard to discredit his sacrifice” (whatever that means) :rolleyes:

    This accusation is foolish, untrue and contemptible.

    I noticed you didn’t cite any sources for your “evidence”. These statistics don’t look at all accurate according to the figures I’ve seen from multiple sources. Of course your statistics don’t take into account what the term “Christian” means – many times it just meant that a person was baptized into a church as an infant. Other times it simply referred to someone who shared Western Enlightenment values.

    I think it would be very revealing to see the statistics on church attendance.

    FALSE ASSUMPTION #1: You apparently assume that Christians are necessarily opposed to separation of church and state. Nothing could be further from the truth. Baptists led the crusade for separation of church and state. Christians of many other denominations joined Baptists in their cause.

    This is an almost exact quote from David Barton (except he claimed that “52 were Evangelical Christians”). This claim has been widely disproven. See also FALSE ASSUMPTION #1.

    This is in regard to the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. Therefore, it is irrelevant.

    FALSE ASSUMPTION #2: You apparently assume that there was a complete consistency of majority opinion regarding separation of church and state from the time of the Revolution to the time of the ratification of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights nearly 15 years later. That is a false assumption. The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom (1786) is an example of the change in attitude.

    That’s the speech he made requesting that the Congress have a time of prayer. If you check your history books, you will discover that they did not follow his advice.

    This material is irrelevant to our discussion. See FALSE ASSUMPTION #2.

    But was he opposed to separation of church and state? Even if he was, Morris did not draft the Bill of Rights that includes the First Amendment. Furthermore, if even though Morris wrote the draft of the Constitution, the Constitution is a notably secular document that only mentions religious when it prohibits religious tests for public office!

    CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
     
  19. Baptist Believer

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    PART 2 OF 3

    See FALSE ASSUMPTION #1

    This does not have anything to do with separation of church and state except perhaps to point out that religion in America was/is strong because we have religious freedom through our First Amendment.

    Actually, Webster wrote the first American English dictionary. Furthermore, Webster’s views changed through his life. During the time of the founding of our nation and the ratification of the Constitution, Webster was an advocate of separation of church and state and religious liberty. After a religious experience somewhere around 1808, he changed his views and began advocated a marriage between government and religion. If you studied his life instead of cut and pasting quotes out of context, you would know this.

    1.) The speech you quoted has nothing to do with our topic.
    2.) I have nothing against Patrick Henry.
    3.) I disagree with Patrick Henry’s views on religious liberty. For the record, the majority of American citizens in his day did as well.

    FALSE ASSUMPTION #3: You seem to have a naïve belief that all of the Founding Fathers and famous leaders in American life during the late 18th century and early 19th century held similar beliefs. (That’s kind of like the way many white liberals seem to believe that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson somehow represent the views of all African-Americans!) For the record, there was quite a bit of disagreement regarding just about every facet of government and legislation. Many of the people you quote are from the losing side of the argument.

    CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST
     
  20. Baptist Believer

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    PART 3 OF 3

    Yes. Maryland, as was the case with some other states, did not give up their established church for a number of years. Furthermore, I’m sure you can comprehend the idea that courts can make faulty decisions.

    Actually this is patently false as far as the federal level went. As far as state constitutions go, most states rewrote their constitutions removing religious tests after the Bill of Rights was passed.

    This comes directly from David Barton’s video, “America’s Godly Heritage” and as far as I know he has never documented this claim. But on its face, this statement has an enormous amount of problems:

    What were their names? Were they professors, students, people from the community? Did they have credentials? Did anyone review their work?

    How were these 15,000 documents selected and what criteria did they use to “boil” them down to 3,154 “statements”?

    Hmm… 34 percent of 94 percent of the hand-selected quotes (not necessarily the full content and context of their thoughts) “came directly from [the] pages [of the Bible]”. And the other 60 percent came “from men who had used the Bible to arrive at their conclusions” – whatever than could be interpreted to mean. (I suspect it means that those men were dedicated Christians.)

    Because of all of these unanswered questions, the lack of documentation, and David Barton’s tendency to be dishonest with his information (I have researched his claims extensively and noticed this), I do not believe him.

    Furthermore, even if it is true, it is meaningless as to whether the Founding Fathers intended separation of church and state. (See FALSE ASSUMPTION #1)

    [Big snip of material that merely demonstrates that we are a nation that has a strong religious heritage. It is completely irrelevant to our conversation. No one has made the claim that religion has not played an important role in the life of our nation.]

    Nope.

    The claims you presented do not match up with objective historical documents that are available to everyone. Why don’t you try reading some primary sources like I suggested instead of reading quotes out of context designed to promote a certain political agenda?

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