Saved by Grace, or Religion?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by righteousdude2, Nov 28, 2014.

  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…" Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

    Which is greater? His Grace, or a set of religious rules and teachings. which will lead you to eternal salvation? Grace, or doing and saying things that others have established as the true and only way to please God?

    Are we saved by Grace, or by religion? I am interested in hearing your views, and what you see as the spiritual wall separating Grace from religion!
     
  2. HAMel

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    Years ago (70's) I had occasion to talk with a man who was hung up in a Religion and he was referencing a particular part of Scripture which I just happened to be familiar with as our Pastor had just spoke on it the previous Sunday. This particular Scripture was the basis for his religion.

    Well..., I broke out the Concordance to let him see for himself what the original text was referring to. Ask me if he was enlightened.

    As a result he ran home to share the news with his wife.

    Wrong Decision!

    Immediately after answering the phone even I was able to grasp the full extent of this woman's upset, rage and anger to the point of her beginning to really raise her voice to a level of yelling at me and telling me to "leave her husband alone."

    (I 'spect he didn't wear the cotton drawers in his home)

    A couple of days later I saw him again and he told me she really went through the roof not only at me but at him. I suppose these two are still into their religion. Who knows?

    As for me..., had the Lord not called me back in 1972 by His Grace..., only He knows where I would be today.
     
  3. Van

    Van
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    Upon Review...

    Which is "greater?" Probably the idea is which is more efficacious in the result of salvation. Obviously nothing anyone does, whether in accordance with God or the misguided views of men merits salvation, therefore "saving grace" is "greater!"

    Here we must take a step back as the statement suggests God did not tell us how to please God. Clearly if our mind is set on fleshly desires we cannot please God, and therefore we must set our minds on God and His righteousness. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Finally our concern about pleasing God must come from the heart, lip-service avails nothing.

    Again, I am not aware of any "spiritual wall" separating God's saving grace from placing our faith in God and His Christ. They are stated as "saved by grace through faith." Thus faith is a prerequisite to receiving saving grace. Now our faith is worthless, without merit, like a filthy rag, but God, who knows our heart, can choose to credit our faith as righteousness, and place us spiritually in Christ.
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    saved due to the fact that Jesus paid my sin debt in full owed to the father, period!
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    Folks, Yeshua1 seems to deny God saves us through faith. His view seems to rewrite Ephesians 2:8 to read "for by grace you have been saved, and your faith had nothing to do with it because salvation is not of yourselves...."

    Whatever happened to the doctrine of "faith alone?" Did the Calvinist rewrite edit it out?
     
  6. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    Here's my take on Ephesians 2:8:

    For by grace you have been saved, through faith. And THAT (faith), not of yourselves. IT (faith) is the gift of God.

    So faith is a necessary component of salvation, but in addition to grace, God has given us the saving faith, as well.

    None of them is merited, else if wouldn't be grace.
     
  7. quantumfaith

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    But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia thv pistewv? kai touto ouk ex umwn? qeou to dwron, ouk ex ergwn? ina mh tiv kauchshtai? “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and THIS (touto, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.”The relative touto, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for pistiv, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.” But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him: the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may. (Adam Clarke)
     
  8. OldRegular

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    That is my understanding of that Scripture also!
     
  9. Van

    Van
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    Nice post, QF, but as you can see, it is not in according with Calvinism, and therefore beyond the grasp of any Calvinist to accept. They argue grammar when they believe it supports their view, and ignore grammar when it refutes their view.

    For by grace you have been saved through faith. Thus faith is a prerequisite to receiving saving grace. The Calvinist plunges right past that and says it is all grace (saving grace and faith via irresistible grace. So again the Calvinist rewrite stands, you were saved by grace, and your faith had nothing to do with it. The opposite of what scripture actually says. :)
     
  10. convicted1

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    And all you do is promote your spiel and froth and foam at the mouth as a rabid dog. You're nothing more than someone who bathes in "derailing threads"....kudos...
     
  11. HankD

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    Again we have a situation in which we are streaming through time from a God who exists in timeless eternity.

    Some have tried to nay-say this concept BUT...

    A day - 24 hours (approx) - The time it takes for the earth to rotate upon its axis.
    A year - 365.25 days (approx) - The time it takes the earth to travel around the sun.

    Time is completely dependent upon God's creation.
    Where were the days and years before creations blueprints were drawn?

    True, He (O Logos) entered into the time continuum nonetheless somehow salvation was a done deal when He did.

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Grace and faith are both essentials in our salvation and though they are distinct entities they are not separated entities.

    Kind of like water? a bonded union of Hydrogen and Oxygen.

    We can't see grace but we can perceive the evidence of its reality.

    If we see true faith (evidenced by the fruit of the Spirit) then grace by necessity is there also.

    John 3
    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Galatians 5
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    HankD
     
  12. HAMel

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    Again we have a situation in which we are streaming through time from a God who exists in timeless eternity.

    Some have tried to nay-say this concept BUT...


    HankD..., most folks don't realize that time is like a gravity. It pulls on us non-stop. Time is a burden. With the Lord things happen in chronological order but the burden of said time is absent.

    While in the flesh we fall under the law as stated in Ecclesiastes 3;

    1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

    2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

    3 A time to kill, and a time to....

    Eternity has no time.
     
  13. righteousdude2

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    Great insight .... we are told that life is but a vapor. And when you hold the life of an eighty year-old man up to the chronological events since Christ's time on earth and 2014, we can see how insignificant the life of that man appears when compared to more than 2,000 years. So how much more insignificant is our short time on earth when holding it up against eternity?

    Truly eternity will be so much more than a mere vapor, and in eternity we will not be pulled to our eventual death, but forever pulled towards eternity with God.

    Saved by Grace....that is what we are. Thank God for that kind of awesome truth, because faith is the key to know and hold that Grace.
     
  14. Van

    Van
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    1) Did the Calvinist response address faith being a prerequisite to saving grace? Nope.
    2) Did the Calvinist response simply bash an opponent to the mistaken doctrine of Calvinist? Yep.
    3) Folks, we are saved "through" faith, or saved "by means of faith" in that our faith, if credited by God as righteousness, provides our access to the grace in which we stand.

    Whatever happened to the doctrine of "faith alone?" Did the Calvinist rewrite edit it out?
     
  15. HankD

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    Yes, its true, time is our prison (so to speak).
    He gave us His word to guide us through time and creation.

    Though it is also true that He desires our time...

    Matthew 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

    HankD
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    Faith merely links us to the Grace of God that is in the Cross of Christ, as THAT alone is the basis for both our salvation and assurance!
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    :thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

    Faith ...saving faith is part of the gift of salvation.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    It is the gidt of God, but the saving aspect is what Jesus did on the Cross, and faith is means God chose to access that to us!
     
  19. Van

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    And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” The Calvinist rewrite is "seeing their faith, which God had given them by irresistible grace, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

    But Jesus turning and seeing her said, “Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” At once the woman was made well. Now the Calvinist rewrite is take courage, your faith (which God instilled via irresistible grace, has made you well.

    Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.” The Calvinist rewrite is ...according to your faith, which God compelled via irresistible grace...

    Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once. Once again, the Calvinist rewrite has ...your faith is great, since God instills great faith via irresistible grace....

    But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. But wait, lets rewrite this, .... his faith, that was instilled via irresistible grace, still needed to be credited as righteousness.

    and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Now, the dirty little secret according to Calvinism, is that even though your faith was instilled via irresistible grace, it is in vain if Christ has not been raised. Now one could say "our faith" rests of the validity of the gospel, rather than on the supernatural mind manipulation of Calvinism.
     
  20. JonC

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    Perhaps salvation is a little more Trinitarian than you'd allow.
     

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