Savior versus Sacrament

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Baptists believe that justification is DIRECTLY RECEIVED by faith in the Personal obedient life and death of Jesus Christ as the full satisfaction for sin whereas Roman Catholicism believes nothing is received by faith in the personal obedient life and death of Christ for sin but rather is DIRECTLY RECEIVED through faithfulness to the church and sacraments.


    Hence, Roman Catholicism place many MEDIATORS between the individual and God other than Jesus Christ.

    Hence, the church and sacraments stand between the individual and Jesus Christ for justification whereas the Baptist position is that nothing stands between Jesus Christ and the indivdiual but unbelief.

    Hence, here is the difference between faith "IN" Christ versus faithfulness "TO" Christ or WHAT CHRIST DID FOR SINNERS versus what SINNERS DO FOR CHRIST.
     
  2. Yeshua1

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    biblical christianity states that jesus saves us, while Rome states she does!
     
  3. Walter

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    Why constantly attack Catholicism on sacramentalism. The vast majority of Christian churches also believe that sacraments are not only valid but biblical. I don't see you attacking Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Orthodox, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, etc. It's mostly Baptists and Pentecostals that are the odd-balls that reject it.

    You constantly start threads attacking Catholicism when, for the most part, Catholics are not even allowed on this board to defend themselves. There are only a handful (3 I think I counted) of Catholics that even have been allowed to defend their faith here. And they are only allowed here because they became Catholic AFTER joining this board. It gives the impression that you aren't up to really debating them. I read plenty of the Catholic threads back in the day when this board did allow Catholics on this board and the Catholics handed you your lunch. Is that why they were all banned?
     
  4. Walter

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    No, the Catholic Church states that our salvation is through Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (page 160, paragraph #615) states: "By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who 'makes himself an offering for sin,' when 'he bore the sin of many,' and who 'shall make many to be accounted righteous,' for 'he shall bear their iniquities.' Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father."


    Again, as it has been stated over and over on this board, Catholics believe that we are saved by grace alone. There is nothing we can do to earn heaven. Christ died to redeem everyone, but not everyone will accept God's gift of HIs grace.

    Catholics understand that the bible does not teach that we're saved by faith alone (Jas. 2:14–17). We are saved by faith working through love (Gal. 5:6). After all, can someone really get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man? That's why 1 Cor. 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing we can achieve, and it is by faith alone that we achieve salvation, then faith should be greater than love. But the Bible says differently.
     
  5. 33ad

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    - there are 2.3 billion trinity baptized Christians and and 1.8 billion of them recognize the apostles and nicene creed and have a sacramental understanding that baptism, and holy Eucharist are there church foundations

    So some people that go coon huntin and say y'all know the absolute truth about the bible and people in Egypt, India, Russia, England, Ethiopia, Lebanon all are off track

    Hmmmm
     
  6. 33ad

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    Apostolic view on confession to a priest in the catholic tradition or in the orthodox to a priest or a lay person appointed by the local bishop


    John 20:21-23
    King James Version (KJV)
    21*Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

    22*And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    23*Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
     
  7. 33ad

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    inprosona Christi
     
  8. billwald

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    Do Baptists have the same rules and theological reasons for baptism and marriage?
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    That is precisely my point! When I expose sacramentalism as a false doctrine I am exposing a false system of salvation embraced by the "many" of Matthew 7:13-14 whereas only the "few" really believe in salvation by grace.

    Catholicism is the "Mother" of sacramentalism and those sacramentalists that historically have been derived from her. The Scriptures speak of only two opposing contrasts - justification by works versus grace and Catholicism is the consistent representative of the "works" position while Baptists are the consistent representative of the "grace" position.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    Of course! However, that is not the issue. The issue is how is the provision received? Catholicism has devised a series of mediators THROUGH which that provision is received whereas the scriptures teach that Justification is the imputation of righteosness and remission of sins and it is received by grace alone through faith alone directly from Christ rather than through a series of mediators - sacraments.


    Every cult believes in "grace" as they define it. Rome is just another cult that perverts the Biblical definition of "grace." Rome simply defines grace to include "good works" and calls them "works of grace."

    However, Romans 4 explicitly deals with the "ungodly" person justified by faith from a theological perspective in a systematic fashion and that is one reason all those who adopt Rome's model of justification do not like to deal with Romans 4 but rather flee to James 2 where "one of you" or a justified, regenerated, baptized church member is the subject and justification is dealt with from a pragmatic perspective where pragmatic illustrations are first presented and a pragmatic approach is then followed ("shew me...shew you....see how....) finalized by more pragmatic illustrations. Of course there is no such thing as "one of you" (church member) or a justified man who is not equally a regenerated man created in Christ "unto good works."

    However, Romans 4 deals with Justification by faith systematically and theologically separate from regeneration and its "good works" and it precisely denies that the one being justified or "the ungodly" participates with or provides any kind of assistance in receiving justification (Rom. 4:16-21) but explicitly denies justifying faith is ACTING but rather RECEIVING and RESTING upon what God promises and provides by His own power (Rom. 4:21).


    The key word in your statement is "accept" as you define it as ACTIVE PARTICIPATION or "faithfulness" to submission to the Church and to sacraments. You do not define it Biblical as RECEIVING and RESTING in God's power to provide God's promise as defined by Paul in Romans 4:21.

    Another perverted and deceptive statement. Baptist do not limit "salvation" to justification either. James speaks of "one of you" or a person who has been born again, justified by faith and is a baptized member of the congregation rather than the "ungodly" person that Paul is dealing with.

    Such a person is not merely justified by faith but has been also "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" (Eph. 2:10) and therefore his profession of justification by faith must accompany "good works" as in such a person there can be no justification where there is not also regeneration and therefore there can no faith where there is not also "works."




    Gal. 5:6 does not even use the word "saved." Paul is talking about a progress not a past tense "savED" completed action. That progressive work is called sanctification. He is contrasting it to circumcision. Circumcision is a symbol of regeneration:

    Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

    Faith and love are fruits of the regenerate new inward man and progressive sanctification is "faith worketh by love."

    Here is the crux of Rome's error! It erases any distinction between justification by faith and sanctification by love.





    Notice your careful words "WE CAN ACHEIVE." However, justification is something only God can acheive - Rom. 4:21. However, regeneration is only something God can acheive - Eph. 2:10 - "CREATED in Christ Jesus."

    1 Corinthians 13:13 is in a context that does not deal with justification by faith or regeneration but rather spiritual gifts of which faith is a fruit of the Spirit and a by product of regeneration. So your whole argument is based upon jerking a term out of context where it has nothing to do with justification or regeneration. Sanctification is faith working by love called faithfulness to Christ. However, justification is faith IN Christ. The former is WHAT YOU DO FOR CHRIST whereas the latter is WHAT CHRIST DOES FOR YOU and that is the vital difference between "another gospel" and the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is all a matter of proper cause and effects.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    That is simply not true to facts. You cannot find anyone anywhere which will provide that statistical data. Wiki is speaking about 38,000 denominations consisting of Arians, Sabellians and Trinitarians not merely trinitarians.

    2.3 billion is the total number of professed "Christians" of all denominations existing in the world. There is no such thing as 38,000 "TRINITARIAN" denominations or 2.3 billion "TRINITARIANS" in the world.

    I have done the research and know you are wrong. Go back and look at your sources and you will see you are not quoting them accurately (or quoting someone who is not quoting the true source materials accurately).



    Yes, and this is the "many" of Matthew 7:13-14 and the same "many" of Matthew 7:21-23 who will stand and make the Roman Catholic confession of faith in Christ PLUS their own good works performed in "THY NAME" as their basis for acceptance into heaven and Christ will say unto them "I NEVER knew you."
     
  12. WestminsterMan

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    Yet Matthew 7:21-23 doesn't mention the Catholic Church does it... that would be your biased spin on that scripture. Hogwash!

    WM
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    I did not say it did, did I? I answered the question of "many" in regard to the way of salvation by the "many" didn't I? You know I did! So your spin is merely deceptive. The fact is, the "MANY" are professed Christians as Matthew 7:21-23 prove and their profession is the same profession of the way of salvaiton taught by Rome and the MAJORITY of Christendom - "Lord, Lord" PLUS "HAVE WE NOT DONE many wonderful works IN THY NAME"
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    Point is that a multitude of sinners will be attending churches, been baptised, go to service, etc

    NOT saved by God, as NEVER trusted in the finished work and person of jesus ALONE to save them!

    Sad to say, MANY will be in the RCC!
     
  15. 33ad

    33ad
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    Would some of you pray for me.....

    O no

    You just became a mediator or a co-demeer between me a god

    Just like
    Mary and the saints
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Your question and conclusion are foolish. Prayer is directed to God through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit not to Mary or to you!
     
  17. 33ad

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    Jesus alone will save me in the catholic church he left us a road map for salvation in the church he founded and the bible the catholic church put together under the guidence of the holy ghost

    1 Timothy 3:15
    King James Version (KJV)
    15*But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    When Jesus ascended into heaven he didn't through down a book that spinned down out of the sky he left us 12 men to start the catholic church and write library of books called the bible that the church would be guided were accurate
     
  18. WestminsterMan

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    Sad to say, MANY will be in the Baptist Church as well.

    WM
     
  19. WestminsterMan

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    Ahhh... YES you did... in the following discourse.

    You can't even remember what you wrote a few minutes ago.

    WM
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    Difference is that those baptists will have right gospel, refuse to heed it

    catholics have the wrong gospel, and will be saved by grace of god in spite of it!
     

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