SCAREY!

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Phillip, Oct 6, 2002.

  1. Phillip

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    I just watched a special on Fox news discussing an author by the name of "Bruce Father" (I hope I got his last name right). The book was called "Abraham" and his whole theory is that Abraham was a true person, but he is pushing (the author) the fact that Abraham was the beginning of three faiths and all of those faiths can have peace if we can only learn to accept that we worship the same God.

    I don't know about other Baptists here, but the "universalism" (god by any path or religion) is the scariest theory and the most evil destruction of Christianity we face today. Otherwise, we are viewed as hate-mongers, if we don't accept this world view of religion. I am afraid this may be the world religion that we see during the end-times--the religion that the anti-Christ can embrace and use to destroy Christians who hold to their views of sin, such as homosexuality, fornication, adultry and others that liberal "so called" religious reverands (even on this website) claims to be are embracing--to end the hatred among all people. The Bible is clear that the world will hate us. So, what is new. I can accept that, but I will not compromise my faith.

    During the entire 9/11 incident we heard a lot of people returning to "God", but the sad part to me was the seemingly heavy lack of the name of God's Son, Jesus Christ, our only Savior and the Creator of this world. I know a lot of good Christians prayed and made themselves well spoken during that time (Thank the Lord), but in general we seem to have a resonate voice that says, our country is leaving out JESUS CHRIST. Let us, as Christians be proud that we have Jesus, the only begotten Son of the Father, as our Savior and not accept the liberalism which lowers us to the point of a universal "god" which can be reached through any religion.

    Sorry about the sermon, the news story just had a strong effect on my emotions. ...The Stones Cry Out...

    May America come back to Christ and His FATHER, not just a "god". I actually heard a Baptist preacher in a church in our city say that the early natives of this country obviously found god through the "god of the sky and god of crops, etc"----Folks----this is NOT Baptist or Christian doctrine.

    I accept Jesus Christ as my Savior and want the world to know it. There is no other path available! Whether the world hates me or not.

    [ October 06, 2002, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
     
  2. Jim1999

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    As I have said in previous posts, Jesus is not only the centre of our faith, He is the chief cornerstone, from which all measurements are taken.

    In architecture, the chief cornerstone is that marker to the extreme left of a structure when facing it. From this point all dimensions are taken. You read a blueprint from left to right, and not indiscriminately. So it is with the Christian religion. We take all our bearings from Jesus, the Christ. He is the only Way. Not one of the ways, else we should end up with wrong dimensions and an imperfect building.

    I have no argument with those who take a modern approach to understanding the scriptures. It is of no consequence whether we read the Red Sea or the Reed Sea. The miracle of timing is not removed. God's deliverance remains. When one removes or alters the "chief cornerstone" I must scrap their drawings, and draw the line, lest my building should crumble when eternity calls.

    Cheers in the Lord,

    Jim
     
  3. Helen

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    Hi Phillip,

    This idea of Abraham being the father of three 'equal' faiths is getting a big push lately. You are right that it's scary. It is marginalizing the Christian message, equating the Judeo-Christian God with the idol of Allah, and acting as though the mandates given in the different holy books are the same. The differences are profound, real, and have eternal consequences. That is something that should NEVER be forgotten!
     
  4. Rev. G

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    Just a technicality, this is actually "syncretism," not "universalism." Nonetheless, your point is well taken! Let me sum up by stating a simple phrase used by the Apostle Paul, "Christ and Him crucified!" Or, as the Reformers put it, " Solus Christus - Christ Alone!"
    [​IMG]
    Rev. G
     
  5. Phillip

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    I agree with all of you. And by the way, it is nice to be hearing from you again Helen. For those who don't know it, I owe her a lot in my views of the Bible. ...thank you again.

    And...would somebody please correct my horrible spelling in the Subject Line.;)
     
  6. Norm

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    Helen: ... It is marginalizing the Christian message, equating the Judeo-Christian God with the idol of Allah, and acting as though the mandates given in the different holy books are the same. The differences are profound, real, and have eternal consequences ...

    Norm: Hardly marginalizing when the goal is to portray the commoness of the three faiths. That it does not elevate the Christian faith to a triumphantal position is not argued, but neither does it do so with the others, either. Second, there are real differences, but reasonable people don't deny that Allah and God are not compatible conceptions of the basis for being. That each faith group has various ideas about Ultimate Concern is hardly debatable, nor is it that the person next to us this morning in church also worshipped One that is conceptulized differently or not entirely similar, too, to our own. And lastly, to assert "have eternal consequences" may in fact be true, but perhaps differently than what some may envision. However, such assertions, whether Helen's or my statement must be made on the basis of faith, not fact. I think it good that we look for the ways our faiths rest on common ground and to encourage such searches. From the common ground, we can then explore the differences, however, likely more out of respect for the other, thus in a greater environment of peace. Goodness, we have seen centuries of violence based in the stressing of their differences. A change of strategy might behoove us?
     
  7. Mark Osgatharp

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    Anything not based on fact is fantasy, not faith. Faith is not a belief in things not factual Faith is a belief in things not seen.

    There is a big difference between those to conceptions of faith. The "faith verus fact" philosphy is non-Baptistic, unscriptural, and ungodly. The "faith versus sight" is the Biblical, Baptist, wholesome concept of belief.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  8. Norm

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    Mark: Anything not based on fact is fantasy, not faith. Faith is not a belief in things not factual Faith is a belief in things not seen. There is a big difference between those to conceptions of faith. The "faith verus fact" philosphy is non-Baptistic, unscriptural, and ungodly. The "faith versus sight" is the Biblical, Baptist, wholesome concept of belief.

    Norm: Mark, is God fact? If you can demonstrate such, you will be the first in history to have done so. If you cannot, then God must be, for you, fantasy. Let's be clear here, I am not asking you if it is reasonable to believe in God or that God exists, I am asking whether or not you can demonstrate such rationally, that is, factually?
     
  9. JamesJ

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    Hi Phillip, His name is Bruce S. Feiler. He was on NBC's Today show last week. During the interview, the person from NBC was absolutely fixated on the subject of God commanding people to kill. Here is the email that I sent to NBC after the show. I have a feeling that it fell on deaf ears.

    Subject:
    Today:You completely missed the point...
    Date:
    Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:59:51 -0500
    To:
    [email protected]

    Hello,

    In the interview this morning with Bruce S. Feiler the author of
    "Abraham: A Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths", the interviewer
    on the Today show focused on killing. "Abraham tried to kill his
    first son by sending him out into the desert..."
    The comment was also made that Abraham tried to kill Isaac with
    a knife until God stopped him.

    These accounts are given to us in the bible to show us:
    1. That Ishmael is NOT the son of the promise, Isaac is.
    2. That Abraham believed God and obeyed Him without question.

    God proved Abraham's faith by testing him when He commanded
    Abraham to take Isaac, his only son at the time, and offer him up
    as a sacrifice. God then showed us that at the right time, He will
    provide for us an acceptable sacrifice by staying Abraham's hand and
    showing him the Ram caught in the bushes. God's acceptable sacrifice
    for all people, for all time, is Jesus Christ. God, in His perfect time,
    provided His own sacrifice. That is the second fork of the account
    of Abraham's life. The Savior would come from the line of the children
    of the promise, which was Isaac, not Ishmael. Ishmael was made a
    great nation, but does not inherit the covenant that God made with
    Abraham and his "seed". You completely missed the point.
    Was that an accident?
     
  10. Rev. G

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    We don't have to "prove" God exists. Humanity already knows it. God has put it within every individual to know this. The problem is that fallen humanity suppresses the truth in unrighteousness (Rom. 1). This includes worshiping the creation rather than the Creator, and making idols - including idols of the imaginiation. There is only one and true God - YHWH - who is revealed fully in Jesus Christ. He who receives Christ receives the Father, He who rejects Christ rejects Father.

    Helen, you go girl! [​IMG]

    Rev. G
     
  11. Mark Osgatharp

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    Of course I can, Norm. God's existence is the one thing about Christianity that can be seen without the aid of supernatural revelation. As Paul said,

    "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them; for the invisible things of God from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

    And as David said,

    "The heavens declre the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the arth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun. Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."

    If you see a car driving down the road that scientifically proves the existence of both a car maker and a care operator. By the same token, when we see the sun coming up and going down every day, that proves the existence of both a sun maker and a sun operator.

    Now if you can't except that reasoning, the apostle Paul said you are a fool.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  12. Johnv

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    Yes, Jews and Muslims are brothers by lineage of Abraham. Christians are CHristians by choice, but if we adopt the God of the Jews, then we. too are brothers with Jews and Muslims. Deny and argue that as we do, to deny that point is to deny something about ourselves.
     
  13. Rev. G

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    "Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God Himself." Then Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on My own; but He sent Me. Why is My language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me!
    Jesus Christ, The Gospel of John 8:39-45
     
  14. DHK

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    If one is to accept your analogy (which I do not), you would first of all have to narrow your focus. The Jews make up a nation. The Muslims make up a religion. That's like comparing apples to oranges. Only the Arabs descended from Abraham, not all Muslims. Pakistan and Bangledash, for example, are Islamic nations, but not Arab nations. The people are East Indian. They are not descendants of Abraham or Ishmael, though Islam is their religion. The Jews on the other hand are both the physical descendants of Abraham, and if believers are the spiritual descendants of Abraham.

    There is only one God. That God is described for us in the Bible. He is the triune God described as Jehovah in the Old Testament, and Jesus in the New Testament. He is the Creator, sustainor of this universe, the One who loved mankind enough to pay the ultimate sacrifice, and die on the cross for man's sins; then on the third day rising again conquering death and sin. He is the Word, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the End. He alone can save.
    This is not a description of Allah. It is far removed from Allah. Allah and the God of the Bible are not the same. Never say that we serve the same God; we do not. The One is the true God of the Bible; the other is a demon-inspired caricature of god, a counterfeit of Satan. There is only One God. Muslims do not serve that God. Muslims do not serve the God of Abraham. They never did. Do not give into that lie. The god of Mohammed was a moon-god.
    DHK
     
  15. blackbird

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    Anything! Absolutely anything more, less, or equal to the Lord Jesus Christ--is anti-christ! He who denies the Son, does what??!! Denies the Father!!

    Philip! Don't feel guilty about preaching for us here, man!! Lay one on us! Keep us informed! Give us the truth!

    Your friend,
    Blackbird

    PS--Helen's posts are "a cool splash in the creek after a day in the Hay field!!"--thanks Helen!
     
  16. Norm

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    Mark: Now if you can't except that reasoning, the apostle Paul said you are a fool.

    Norm: The words of Paul and the Psalmist are the words of faith, they are not a demonstration of fact for God's existence. These people were moved to write these extraordinary things as an expression of their faith in God and God's involvement in history, and as such they are not negated for the person of faith because they are not based in fact. I, myself, too, believe that faith will one day be vindicated (itself a faith statement). I accept the words of Paul and the Psalmist, but deny that you have proven the existence of God. Mark, you have offered two statements that provide reasonable support for one's faith in God, but you have offered nothing that supports the factual basis for the existence of God. At best, people like Aquinas, Hartshorne, etc., for all their intellectual insights, which far, far exceeds my own, offer reasoned, not factual, arguments for God existence, even as they did not and could not break through the finitude of language and the limits of existence to embrace the infinite and ground of our existence.
     
  17. Frogman

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    Brothers and Sisters,

    Remember:

    "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know it is the last time." I John 2.18

    correct me if I am in error, but "anti" means against; and also instead of.

    Antichrist is "spirit," but shall also be manifested as a man; Satan's last attempt to imitate the Trinity of God.

    I agree with everyone here that this is "scary." However, I believe it is more scary when Christians "push" these ideas of equal paths to God.

    I heard during the Summer of 2001 of a group of Theologians (representing all the major "denominations") were commissioned to "study" the following:

    1. The Diety of Jesus
    2. The Resurrection of Jesus

    The group concluded: That Jesus was probably no more than a man--concluded by majority.

    Sixty percent concluded the Resurrection of Christ could not be proven, thus probably did not occur.

    When interviewed, these men claimed to be Christians, citing the fact they were raised to believe these things.

    "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain; ye are yet in your sins." 1 Cor. 15.17

    They concluded the Christian religion was equal to and not greater than any other path one would "choose" to serve God. In essence it is faith in God which mattered.

    "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." 1 Cor. 15.19

    Our Lord said: "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one from another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?" John 5.43-44

    What is trully scary is when "Christians" accept these things (many paths) as truth.

    Many, I fear, are seeking success in this world and using the Christian name.

    As to being Christian by choice, this is the way things are in appearance.

    "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

    If it were trully a simple matter of choice, and if these believed one path is as good as another, surely they would have no problem embracing Christ. We are born of the Spirit of God; after the spirit of man is destroyed within us. This is not a natural occurrance and no individual will "choose" that except God works in each to that end.

    The historical belief in Jesus is not so much what is rejected; but the Deity of Christ is where such do stumble. This belief destroys man and exalts God, The Godhead, in all things, I am but dust.

    God Bless you all in your walk and service to Him.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  18. Phillip

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    Preach on! Bro. Dallas Eaton!

    I edited your statement to pose a question or two based on the remarks above: Is it truly possible to be a Christian with the belief that there are other ways to God? Is this simply the response of an immature Christian (still feeding off of the milk) or that of somebody missing the boat entirely?

    I, personally, do not see how a man can believe that Jesus is the Son of God, God in Flesh, and our Creator if there are still alternatives in that person's mind.

    Mind you, I am not talking about doubts that can effect all Christians, especially when they are down and in times of sickness, etc. These are attacks of our spiritual enemies. I am talking about somebody who claims to be a Christian, but preaches other alternatives. Why not just throw out the great commission if any religion leads to god? Why not throw out the whole "gospel" (New Testament AND Old)?

    Don't I recall somebody in history making a remark such as: "Depart from me, I never new you!"? I wonder who that was and why HE would say that?

    (Matt. 7:15-23)

    [ October 07, 2002, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
     
  19. Phillip

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    Your diatribe makes my point of what is happening in our churches today. Sorry, about the tough language, but I am not going to allow for the message of Jesus Christ to be watered down.

    I am sorry, but Paul did not respect other religions, I don't think I will either. The ONLY reason I would have to study another religion would simply be to better understand where the lost person went wrong to help them turn to Christ, but Jihad is an Islamic concept, not a Christian concept--as you seem to be stating. I don't think many true Christians would "fight" and not "love" another person because they have a different religion, but Christians have no business promoting comparisons between Islam and the REAL Christ Jesus!

    Even your use of the word "fantasy" makes a mockery of our Testament of Jesus Christ, THE Son of God. If you are a Christian, I will love you as a brother, but I cannot accept your remarks. . . Sorry. . .

    His is a message of Love, but, first you must reject the message of the world!

    [ October 07, 2002, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
     
  20. RomOne16

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    Matt. 10:32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. 34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' F46 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

    The concept of Christians finding common ground with other religions for the sake of "peace" is not of God.

    Jesus is THE way, THE truth and THE life, and no man comes unto the Father but by HIM .

    The truth of Jesus should be proclaimed by all Christians, and if it is rejected, then we as Christians should have nothing more to do with the rejectors. I'm not advocating meanness or violence by Christians, but we should shake the dust off our feet on our way out of town and keep seeking those who need to hear the good news. [​IMG]
     

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