Scholars with questionable degrees?

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by paidagogos, Oct 11, 2006.

  1. paidagogos

    paidagogos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Without a doubt, the Dean of Liberty Baptist Seminary (Ergun Caner, B.A., M.A., M.Div., Th.M., D.Min., D.Theol.) has some impeccible credentials. His graduate degrees, except for the D.Min., are from Criswell College, SEBTS and UNISA respectively. The D.Min. is the problem. It is from an unrecognized school of questionable quality in Connelly Springs, NC. Check it out at the web sites below:

    http://www3.vistatech.net/~ebu/
    http://emmanuelbaptistuniversity.com/index2.htm

    Now, the question is whether Dr. Caner should list this degree among his credentials? Did Dr. Caner take the easy way to a doctorate before he earned a respectable doctorate from UNISA? He really doesn't need the D.Min. for his reputation. Should he continue to claim this less than wonderful degree on his academic vitae?

    (See pages 123 (catalog page #118 ) and 127 (catalog page # 122) of the pdf at http://www.liberty.edu/media/1109/06-07-grad-catalog-w-errata-sheet.pdf)
     
  2. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know and I don't care. I rarely list my degrees, although they are respected. I always thought it to be a bit off the mark to focus so much on the letters after one's name.
     
  3. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ditto!

    I'd say let the man list any letters he wants after his name, I'll have my own opinion before he's half way through his sermon.
     
  4. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    I would suspect that many in a number of religious circles of a certain kind would be found guilty of questionable ethics in regards to degrees.
     
  5. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmmm! Hmmmm! This post is worth two pauses, I believe! Surely you would not be talking mostly about Baptists, now, would you?? :rolleyes:

    'Cause somehow that idea just 'hit' me, considerin' this is a 'Baptist Only' Forum. :tonofbricks:

    Give me some 'real' 'preachers' and 'scholars', not just a bunch with some phony conferred Doctor's degree, I would say, here. Would y'all agree or disagree with me?

    Ed
     
    #5 EdSutton, Oct 12, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2006
  6. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==Dr Caner is now the President of Liberty Theological Seminary at Liberty University. I thought I heard him say he had a Doctorate in history? Middle ages or something like that. Maybe that was his brother? I don't know I will have to do some research.


    ==I don't know, maybe you should ask him directly. Personally I don't think it should be listed. After all I doubt his employment at Liberty is in any way based on that degree.
     
    #6 Martin, Oct 12, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2006
  7. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==Yes, I think it is Emir Caner with the PhD in History

    from the College at Southwestern's website...

    I don't know what Emir's PhD is in, however. Univ. of Texas at Arlington only has one PhD in history and that is in Transatlantic History.
     
  8. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why does "life experience" allow a person to cut down on the length of their thesis? I have never heard of such a thing. A thesis is about scholarship not life experience.


    Sounds like a degree mill to me.
     
  9. paidagogos

    paidagogos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Emmanuel Baptist University

    Unless I overlooked something, there are no Biblical language courses (e.g. Greek, Hebrew, etc.) offered or required for any degree including the several doctorates. Their course offering seems inadequate for even an undergraduate degree but they offer as many doctorates as undergraduate options. Do they have enough faculty to adequately supervise so many doctorates and specialties , which require more one-to-one interaction? Also, there is no indication of where their faculty received their degrees although it is liberally festooned with doctorates. Chances are that most have their doctorates from Emmanuel. Furthermore, their accreditation is definitely bogus. Is Emmanuel a degree mill? You decide.


    Now, the question is whether Ergun Caner lends credence to this school by listing their D.Min. on his vitae? As a respected member of academia, is it his responsibility to uphold academic standards by distancing himself from anything that smells of a degree mill or substandard? Would Dr. Caner’s seminary accept credits or degrees from Emmanuel? What do you think?
     
  10. bobbyd

    bobbyd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,468
    Likes Received:
    0
    If he earned it...let him list it.

    Sincerely,
    Bobby Daniel: AA, BA, MDiv, ABC, EFG, ADHD, ASAP, ESV, TTFN :laugh:
     
  11. UZThD

    UZThD
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0



    Now, the question is whether Ergun Caner lends credence to this school by listing their D.Min. on his vitae? As a respected member of academia, is it his responsibility to uphold academic standards by distancing himself from anything that smells of a degree mill or substandard? Would Dr. Caner’s seminary accept credits or degrees from Emmanuel? What do you think?
    [/quote]

    ----------

    I think you are right!
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    :applause: :laugh:

    You forgot one! I once knew a believer who was brilliant, though he lived in a tent by the side of a road. He signed his name BaC. When I asked what that was he grinned and said, "Born Again Christian!"
     
  13. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    The only degree I care about is my B.A. (born again) and it was not earned, it was awarded by divine election and grace.

    When I open my mouth, the people will know where I am coming from and where I am going, and no number of letters behind my name will alter that.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    PS. Have we in these times created the degree mill out of demand and expectation?
     
  14. Pipedude

    Pipedude
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the process was:
    1. Citified sophistication created the demand for educated ministers
    2. Bad schools produced bad graduates
    3. Lax congregations tolerated them and denominations went bad
    4. Separatists pulled out and focused on practical education
    5. New Evangelicalism reintroduced high academics (but it became What David Wells documented in No Place for Truth)
    6. Conservatives, whimpering over their insulted self-image, tried to ape the New Evangelical academics, but weren't up to it
    7. Degree millerites saw an opportunity for a fast buck and manufactured the product.
    So, yeah, I think they arose out of demand. A Laodicean church--pastors and parishoners--hungering for a kind of respectability that can't be gotten by just serving and pleasing God.

    Let me add a disclaimer: I have nothing against degree mills so long as they do not mislabel their products. It's a free country. Let them teach, let them offer their services to the highest bidder, and let them certify what happened while the student was there...but don't call it a degree such as a regular school offers.

    It's against the law to sell sherbert and label it as ice cream.
     
  15. El_Guero

    El_Guero
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    If students fail in their academic integrity the punishment is swift.

    Therefore, the accrediting agency should place Liberty on immediate probation, pending a full investigation and a two year moratorium of accreditation for Liberty and ALL CURRENT students.

    If there is no bite, then why are any degrees accredited?
     
  16. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0

    :applause: :applause: :applause:
     
  17. mcdirector

    mcdirector
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,292
    Likes Received:
    10
    I don't believe Liberty would accept credits from Emmanuel. Emmanuel looks too much like Andersonville and Bethany. They have some value -- more than a mill -- but they lack academic rigor. I don't think he should list it.
     
  18. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    one of the looming issues of crisis in the current SBC is the plethora of individuals with degrees from questionable institutions. Currently at SWBTS the student body is being led by several individuals with terminal degrees from University of Texas at Arlington and other insitutions which degrees have little to do with their professorships. It is a rather unique position for the leadership since they are so hardcore about certain peripherial theological issues and demand doctrinal purity over so much, but are willing to accept and give prime positions for people who have degrees from questionable sources.

    imho, we've recently seen one pastor of a significant released from his employment because of false degree information on his resume...if we did a denominational wide audit we'd probably have a significant number of people in unemployed situations.

    btw, if we even think this is considered an issue at Liberty we're kidding ourselves. Nothing will happen, the same people will continue to fill the same posts. Welcome to the machine
     
  19. paidagogos

    paidagogos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Academic integrity?

    So, are you saying that academic integrity and quality standards are of no concern?
     
  20. El_Guero

    El_Guero
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    If a football coach faked his degree - the punishment would be swift (has been). If the university let the degree be published and knew it was a fake - the punishment would be swift and they would be on probation.

    I say, be swift put them on probation. Revoke their accredited status to grant degrees immediately. Tell them officially that they must remove any and all paid staff that have fake degrees. Make an appointment to review their progress in 2 years. Revoke the accredited status of ALL degrees until after they have been reviewed and it is determined that they have removed ALL fake degreed professors.

    We say that we want real degrees. We say that we want accredited standards.

    When students plagiarize - we ruin them for a failure in academic integrity.

    Schools need to be treated in the same manner. IMHO.

    Will it happen? I ain't holding my breath.
     

Share This Page

Loading...