Scriptural Preservation - Circular?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by manchester, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. manchester

    manchester
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    Is it possible to discover, as a doctrinal matter, whether God preserves the Bible by looking at the Bible? How can you use the Bible to determine what is the Bible?

    From the beginning, let's say a person does not know whether this book of scripture (Bible, Koran, or something else) sitting in front of him is entirely true and worthy of belief. Should he rely upon whether it says it is true to know it is true? Even if the book was originally 100% true, and parts of the book that said it's true are still in the book, if other parts of the book are corrupted doesn't that defeat any internal assurances that the book (or rather the book's original, uncorrupted source) is true?
     
  2. robycop3

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    Some time ago, I was witnessing to a Moslem, and as always I prayed silently that the Holy Spirit would speak through me or otherwise help me. I had read the Koran, and I was prompted to ask the Moslem about the prophecies in the Koran.(There are NONE!) When he couldn't answer, I pointed out to him many prophecies in the Bible that have been precisely fulfilled up to now, including some that Moslem's don't like, concerning the Jews. I reminded him those prophecies are far older than is modern Israel, and I asked him who'd win a battle between his native Lebanon and Israel.

    I asked him to prove one thing in the Bible incorrect, and to call me if he were able to do that. I asked him if he believed Israel became strong through their own works. I asked him if he'd met any Edomites lately, or vacationed in Tyre, Babylon, or Nineveh. In parting, I asked him to please think it over carefully, and to read a Bible cover-to-cover, then come back & criticize.

    I never heard from him again.
     
  3. Craigbythesea

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    I believe that it is both foolish and dangerous to believe that any religious book, including the Bible, is true just because some people say that it is. I believe that we need substantial evidence that a book is true before we conclude that it is true.

    I have met and ministered with people from all of over the world that believe that the Bible is true and therefore apply its teaching to their lives. When I compare these lives with the lives of the people who place more faith in the Koran or any other religious book, and therefore apply those teaching to their lives, I am much more favorably impressed with the lives of the people who believe that the Bible is true and therefore apply its teaching to their lives. Does that necessarily mean that the Bible is 100% perfect and free from corruptions of every kind? No, of course not. But I have also compared the lives of the people who believe that the Bible is free from error with the lives of people who do not believe that the Bible is free from error, and when I compare the lives of these two groups, I am much more favorably impressed with the lives of the people who believe that the Bible is free from error. There are, of course, individual exceptions, but I don’t base my conclusions on the exceptions but upon what I typically find.

    My conclusion, therefore, is that the Bible is true, and that believing that it is true and applying its teachings to one’s life is the way to live. [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    :eek: Craig...You are scaring me buddy! The Bible is TRUE...PERIOD.Of course God gave me(and MANY others)the FAITH to believe that.To say that your faith and confidence in the bible is due to the lives of the people who you observe believing it is something like spiritual QUICKSAND.Sooner or later one or more of these good,yet imperfect brothers or sisters is gonna LET YOU DOWN....and then where will your faith be??
    Your FAITH MUST be grounded in our Perfect,Righteous,Holy God.....AND His Perfect,Righteous Holy Word...or it is subject to destruction.All false religion has its roots in people placing their "faith" in the wrong things.

    Greg Sr. [​IMG]
     
  5. Spoudazo

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    The Bible is true. It is a logical and trustworthy outcome of circular reasoning.
     
  6. HankD

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    We recognize the written Word of God because we have the mind of Christ available to us having been born of the Spirit who inspired the written Word of God:

    1 Corinthians 2
    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
    16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
     
  7. Craigbythesea

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    That is absolutely nothing but your own, personal, interpretation! Every good Muslim believes EXACTLY the same thing about the Koran! How do you know that you are right and the Muslim is wrong? You don’t know—just like the Muslim does not know—both of you just think that you know. Blind faith is dangerous faith and has led countless millions into hell.

    Had you read my post rather than simply found fault with it, you would have read,

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Ultimately, the internal testimony of hte Spirit is what convinces the individual.
     
  9. Craigbythesea

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    I just read exactly the same thing on a Mormon website about the Book of Mormon, and they said that they have the “burning in the bosom” to prove that the book of Mormon is the word of God. :rolleyes:

    Hogwash!

    I don’t have faith in my grandmother’s cookbook because I have a burning in my bosom—I have faith in my grandmother’s cookbook because I have tasted the food and I saw that it was good. [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Craig,

    The weakness of your argument is its existentialism. Your faith might depend on that, but the same can be said for many books, not all of which are true. In fact, false teachers give "tasty food" but they are still false teachers. The word does not become the word when it means something to you ... meaning, when you experience something from it. IT is the Word of God regardless of an individual's experience with it.
     
  11. Craigbythesea

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    The question in this thread is how do you know that the Bible is the word of God? The Muslims, the Mormons, and many others make the same claim and have the same belief regarding their favorite book. :D

    [​IMG]
     
  12. HankD

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    Which part of the Scripture that I quoted is hogwash?

    HankD
     
  13. Phillip

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    I think Craig said something that you guys may not be catching. Craig, correct me if I am wrong.

    Craig has developed at least part of His faith in the Bible in that he has witnessed from people who are Christians as compared to those who are Muslims or other faiths.

    Craig, also correct me if I am wrong here too. But, I think you have witnessed miracles in people's lives due to their Christian beliefs. There is no difference from this and the miracles Jesus performed while he was on Earth to show that He was God in the flesh.

    Although, once we become a Christian and accept Jesus as the Son of God, something has to bring us to the point of believing this and what better way than to look at the lives of people in different religions?

    Haven't we been told, right here, that the Holy Spirit has told people that their King James Bible is the only truely preserved Bible in the English language?
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    Yes they do, which is why I find your argument inadequate. There are many things that have "changed people's lives." That does not mean they are worthy of belief or imitation, or that they are good standards to follow.

    Ultimately, it is the inner testimonium. We cannot convince others of that. That is the purview of the Holy Spirit. I think we make a mistake going down the road of using logical argumentation or historical argumentation to "prove Scripture." I think it is misguided.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    But the test of truth is not how people respond to it. People can be moral, kind, loving, etc, while denying the Bible. I don't think this can be a very solid argument.

    The age of miracles is over. There are no verifiable miracles being performed today, so in that sense, whatever is happening today is very different than what Christ did. Those miracles were confirmatory to bring belief in Christ (John 20:31) and to confirm the apostolic testimony (Heb 2:2).
     
  16. Craigbythesea

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    The scripture that you quoted was is not hogwash, but the argument that you incorrectly derived from it is hogwash.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Craigbythesea

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    Larry,

    It appears to me from this quote that you have never witnessed a miracle in the biblical sense. If that is true, . . . .

    [​IMG]
     
  18. LRL71

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    The scripture that you quoted was is not hogwash, but the argument that you incorrectly derived from it is hogwash.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]So much for Craig's graciousness.... :rolleyes:

    If the statements of others, who have successfully rebutted Craig's 'neo-orthodox' beliefs, are 'hogwash' as Craig claims they are, then why doesn't Craig back up his false beliefs? [​IMG]
     
  19. Craigbythesea

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    Thank you for your gracious reply and falsely accusing me of holding to neo-orthodox beliefs. :rolleyes:

    Instead of posting personal attacks, perhaps you should address these questions in the opening post,

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    No one has witnessed a biblical miracle for about than 1900 years.
     

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