Scripture Supporting a Pretrib Removal of the Church

Note that #3 is the resurrection where
the pretribulation rapture takes place.

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\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 15 Mar 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

The first resurrection mentioned in the Bible is
mentioned here:

Mt 22:23 (HCSB):
The same day some Sadducees, who say there is no
resurrection, came up to Him and questioned Him

The first resurrection mentioned in the Bible is
the resurrection that the Sadducees don't believe in.

 

I can't say who: "I have stated repeatedly that the resurrections occur in a brief, specific period of time as you well know. "

Yes, we noticed your cant.
The Bible seems to have alternative instruction.

Does anybody have a preacher that shares
retorical divices? It would be nice if
one is not going to take things literal
to be aware of literary divices. One such
divice is the SUMMARY. Instead of wasting
the time of others recounting every detail
(and saying in every scripture all scriptural
truth) only a short summary is provided.

2 Peter 3:10 is an example of a summary.
The purpose of the middle part of Chapter
3 of 2 Peter is to encourage those in Christ
to better service. To encourage the
Christian, Brother Peter the Apostle says in
2 Peter 3:10 (KJV1611):

2Pe 3:10 (KJV1611 edition):

But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe
in the night, in the which the heauens
shall passe away with a great noise, and
the Elements shall melt with feruent
heate, the earth also and the works that are
therin shalbe burnt vp.

2Pe 3:10 (KJV1769 edition):
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief
in the night; in the which the heavens
shall pass away with a great noise, and
the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Note the changes 1611 to 1769: the comma
after night changes to a semicolon.
Recall that the 1611 Translators were more
of experts at retorical divices.
Note the change 1611 to 1769: the capital
'e' in 'Elements'.

This is a summary, the day of the Lord is
NOT literally followed immediately by the
disolving of the Elements. Other parts of the
Bible indeed, give details that are omitted
in this summary. In fact, the 1,000 year reign
of Jesus, the Christ,comes in between
the Day of the Lord and the
end of the world/universe.

Doctrines of Eschatology that exclude the details
will miss out on a lot of truth.
The 100% hope that we have in Christ is
due to the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
of the church age elect saints, the Christians
of today.

 

Ah Ha, then you are a closet Darbite?

 

Darby was real, a-mill was a myth

or was a-mill a myth-ter

 

Are you serious?

Revelation 20:4-6

1769 KJV
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Do you really doubt that these are people? What do you think they are?

5. But the rest of the dead -- "rest" in context is a subset of the previous. If you think the first were not people, then the second group is not people either.

As for two resurrection explicit taught, how can you question that? There are some raised (described in v. 4) who reign with Christ for 1000 years. Whatever the thousand years is, they are raised before it and reign with Christ through it. "The rest" are raised after the 1000 years. Again, whatever the 1000 years is, these are raised from the dead after it. That takes the following chronological sequence:
1. some raised to reign with Christ.
2. thousand years.
3. the rest raised

That is explicit teaching of two resurrections.

I agree, but you brought up John 5 as a supposed "dispensational killer" so I refuted your intepretation of it. If you wish to quit talking about John 5 and the resurrection that is fine with me. I only responded to what you started.

[ March 17, 2005, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

I see that you have the heart of a pastor but then I have come to expect nothing less from a follower of Darby/Scofield. </font>[/QUOTE]Is this the personal attack to which you were referring? If so please reread your remarks to which I responded. </font>[/QUOTE]I know exactly what I said. But you made a personal attack on me. Why? There was no call for it. I made no personal attack on you. Go back and read what I said. There is not even a hint of a personal attack in there. </font>[/QUOTE]Sounds peraonal to me: "disagree with knowledge, rather than out of ignorance". </font>[/QUOTE]In my initial response to this on page 2, I said the following.

Was that an attack on myself? Of course not. You can see how sillly that argument is. When I call myself ignorant (and we all are ignorant about some things) it is not a personal attack. It is a statement of fact.

Ignorant means "not knowing." It isn't an attack. You asked a question which implies ignorance. My point was that I am fine if you disagree with me. I really am. But if you are going to disagree, don't do it out of ignorance ... in other words, disagree after you know what we believe and why we believe it. You have disagreed very strongly, but have shown yourself not to even know what you are disagreeing with. That is disagreeing out of ignorance. I am encouraging you not to do that.

 

Interesting. Read Acts 7:14 and explain it to us. And Acts 27:37 while you are at it. While you are on a roll, try Rom 13:1. That should do for now with Scripture.

Secondly, tell us what we become at death when the soul is separated from the body. Are we not people any more? What are we?

Thirdly, explain to use what these were raised from if it didn't include their body? What was dead that needed to be raised?

 

It is? I don't think so.

That could be, but whether or not they have bodies is not the point. The point is that it is a resurrection, distinct from another resurrectdion 1000 years later. That is two resurrections.

However, you don't get to just say the context is different. That is a huge jump.

So we don't exist anymore?

They "came to life." That doesn't seem hard to me. It is parallel to v. 5, and that context is pretty clear. You cited Sproul as supporting literal interpretation, and then refuse to apply it. I don't get it, but I am not going to keep going around with you. Currently, R.L. Thomas has the best commentary from a dispensational viewpoint (the best commentary overall IMO), and is well worth adding to your library if you want to study this issue in depth. I would recommend having it to get the "other side."

 

And that of Ryrie and Walvoord. Normal interpretation is what dispensationalism is all about. Sproul is extremely inconsistent, which is why Ryrie pointed out that one of the sine qua non of dispensationalism is the consistent use of a literal hermeneutic. You guys do it when convenient for your position. We try to do it all the time.

THere is no doubt that Scripture contains figurative language. No one disputes that. But it simply isn't as much as you need it to be and in the places you need it.

This appears to contradict what you said earlier, when you said that these were teh souls of people who had died durin the church age. Now you seem to be saying that this is the salvation of people. Which is it?

Actually, it is neither. It is an end time resurrection of those killed during the seven year Tribulation. That is the only contextual possibility that takes into account the things that John said. Anything else is a violation of hte hermeneutic that you cited Sproul as believing.

For instance, when it says "1000 years" what contextual reason is there to take it as anything other than 1000 years? Answer: None. The only reason you have to take it "spiritually" is your preconceived position that there can't be a 1000 year reign on earth. And since there can't be a 1000 year reign on earth, then this can't mean 1000 years, even though that is what it plainly says. That is a violation of the hermeneutical rules you posted (which I was glad to see from you ... now if only you would use them).

Lastly, you seem to be denying the bodily resurrection. That is an extreme problem. 1 Cor 15 teaches a bodily resurrection, not just a spiritual one. In fact, since the spirit doesn't die, any resurrection has to be a bodily resurrection.

You have revealed some big holes in your theology.

 

My comment was prefaced by "seem." It was based on what you said above about the resurrection of souls. I haven't insulted you in the least. There are some very troubling aspects of your post to me. You said that their souls were raised, not their bodies. That seems to deny a bodily resurrection. And notice that I have said "seems," and no one has ever accused me of not being rational. You said some things that lead this rational person to say that you seem to deny a bodily resurrection.

YOu have posted John 5:28-29 many times, and each time I have posted a refutation of your view. It does not specify that it is the only resurrection. It specifies that is the resurrection only of people who are in teh graves. It says nothing about people who may have come out of the graves earlier, who can't be in that verse since they are not "in the graves." I have showed you direct evidence from Rev 20 that there is more than one resurrection. And in all of it, you just ignore it. Why? How do Rev 20 and John 5 fit together? Rev 20 says there are two resurrections separated by 1000 years. That is a) more than one resurrection and b) contradictory of your view that John 5 is the only resurrection there is.

You have to understand, I am not denying that JOhn 5 teaches a resurrection. I am questioning your insistence that it teaches that there is only one resurrection. Clearly, that is not the case.

 

Pastor Larry,

Oh really? Let look at Rev. 20:4-6,

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Chriust a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST resurrection." Blessed and holy is he that hath PART in the first resurrection on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

John tells us, he saw the souls of them which were killed for beheaded, won't worship the beats, neither receive the mark of the beast, their souls are now in the heaven are reigning with Christ. Also, they are priests. Verse 5 says, " 'rest of the dead' lived NOT again until the thousand years were finished," John speaks of that group 'dead' apply to unbelievers, that their souls are spiritual death, they are still in the graves, their souls are spiritual death and separated from God, they are now in the hell await for the judgement day to come/ John saw the soul of them, who are now reign with Christ, they are part of "first resurrection", because Christ already quicked them - Eph. 2:1,5, at first we were spiritually dead without have Christ. But when we believed in Christ, he made us quicked. Quicked means to make us live again. It is not speak of physical resurrection, it is speak of spiritual.

Many saints who have followed and obey Christ, many who died in Christ, now their souls are in the heaven with the Lord.

Understand our souls never, never die, our souls are eternality. Our physical is temporary. Two of soul and spirit both are not temporary, both eternity. When we die, our body return to the dust, but our souls go to the Lord immediately.

I have no idea, what saints are doing up in the heavens right now. But, I am no doubt, I am sure, there are much of activity in heaven. I am sure that God already plan for the saints when after they died, will give them the duty to them, what they shall do while in the heaven. I am sure that many saints are action and keep busy, not just chatting each other, or stand in the cloud watching us on earth. I believe saints are action.

I have another a BIG question, in my mind, do the saints immediatedly face the judgment in the heaven follow right after they die?

Possible. I can't prove it, because I not yet see in the heaven, I am not yet arrive there, curious want to know what they are doing up there right now. Probably Jesus is currently judging saints by set the book of Life up in the heaven already bein since after Christ ascend back into the heaven to now. I believe saints are getting rewards in the heaven during judgement in the heaven right now. But I can't prove it. No one on earth know what's going on in the heaven, what they are doing there. Wait till we die to get into the heaven, then we will know.

You see, all graves are still cover people's bodies right now. So, the resurrection is not yet take place. Resurrection will be occur at Christ's coming.

Also, I believe alive and remain saints who are living in the final generation at the end of the age, shall be caught up, then Christ shall judge them(sheep), while judging goats same time - Matt. 25:31-46.

The basic thing, I only know and strong believe we all shall be resurrection in physically and shall change into immortality. We all are looking forward for it.

Rev. 20:13 must have shown clearly of physical resurrection, not "spiritually".

Many saints are now in the heaven are ALREADY have the part of the "first resurrection". And the rest of the dead are not live, they do not have the first resurrection. But, they are already have the "second death".

"First resurrection" = eternal life with Christ
"second death" = eternal punishment with Satan

Both saints and wicked have the part of "first death", because we all get sin come from Adam - Romans 5:12. That why we all must died - physically. But, anyone who believed and followed Christ, are now part of the first resurrection by born again. Wicked not believe and not follow Chist, cannot have the part of the first resurrection, already reserved "second death" for send them into the lake of fire.

I believe both saints and wicked' souls are eternity, and our souls never, never die, either of our souls go to heaven or hell immediately right after we died(physical). But, both our bodies are return to the dust foloow our death. Both saints and wicked await for their body to be resurrection from the graves, that must be at Christ's coming on the last day, not 1000 years apart.

Later I will discuss more on 'a thousand years'.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Either way, DPT, you still have two resurrections, one before the 1000 years and one after. If the first is only a resurrection of souls, how in the world is that meaningful, given your statement that souls are eternal and never die. Why does something that is not dead need to be resurrected? And you say it is spiritual resurrection, not physical. How do you know that? You didn't get it from the text. In fact, based on your own statements, since the soul never dies, why does it need to be raised again?

Secondly, you say the second group (the rest of the dead) is unbelievers. How do you know that? The text doesn't say that. (And I am not agreeing or disagreeing at this point, though I do have a position.) I am merely pointing out that the text doesn't say that. You got it from somewhere else.

In the end, I don't have the time or interest to keep going around about this. As always, I enjoy the stimulation, and count you guys as brothers but will probalby leave the discussion here. I hope that we will all give due diligence to the accurate study of the word.