Semi-Pelagianism vs Arminianism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Dec 14, 2010.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    1st..totally and completely depraved

    From this link...

    http://arminiantoday.blogspot.com/2007/10/mistaking-arminianism.html

    "Arminian Today" which of course is Arminian, points out a few differences in Semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism


    Again from the same site...

    Arminius and John Wesley both affirmed the Augustine doctrine of original sin. They both affirmed that in Adam we all fell. This radical corruption has so filled our lives that we are totally and completely depraved and apart from the work of grace (and the Spirit), no person would be able to respond to the gospel of Christ.

    Going by this site..Semi-Pelagianism teaches that the doctrine of total depravity is false.

    Do you agree?
     
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    The Canons of the Council of Orange

    (529 AD)

    CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:16); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19).

    CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).
     
  3. MB

    MB
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    While I readily agree that man is a sinner and is depraved. I disagree that man is unable to respond to the gospel as Calvinism states that it means. Calvinism claims natural men are reprobates. Which means rejected and abandoned to sin. If reprobate is the case then God will not save any of us because we have all been abandoned by Him. Therefore man had better hope he isn't reprobate as Total depravity is said to be.

    I find that the tulip for instance is completely unprovable and isn't even biblical. The Bible doesn't ever say man is unable to respond to the gospel. In fact the opposite is true which is why we are told to preach the gospel to every living creature. If we are to preach to every living creature it's because men can hear and understand the gospel. Other wise there is no reason to preach to the masses.

    Preaching to the lost can save some and make the natural man hate God all the more. I personaly know of men who hate God simply because they were convicted by the message of God and still rebelled. They didn't want to be told they are inefficient in there own happiness. Believe me to have that kind of hate inside you makes you very miserable. I love telling them about my savior anyway weather they want to hear it or not because if they reject Him they will know why they suffer when they do. To know the answer and know you had a chance to prevent it and didn't, is a kind of hell of it's own.

    As far as Semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism, I've been labled as both. However I'm neither. I believe that the Natural man doesn't seek God without being drawn although men have been saved by accidentally hearing the word preached. Men rarely notice anything they aren't drawn to, either by God, Surprise or, fear. To notice is to be drawn. The depth of which depends on God alone.

    They say the proof is the Bible so here is my proof that Total depravity and being unable to hear the gospel is not true.

    Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

    Leaves no doubt we can hear it

    MB
     
  4. webdog

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    Total doesn't leave much wiggle room. I do agree with them, the doctrine as defined by calvinism is false.
     
  5. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
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    "To offer salvation while withholding the necessary ability to respond seems like offering healing to any quadriplegic who can get up to recieve it."
     
  6. Jarthur001

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    Kinda sounds like the story of the Bible...

    1 Afterward Jesus returned to Jerusalem for one of the Jewish holy days. 2 Inside the city, near the Sheep Gate, was the pool of Bethesda,[a] with five covered porches. 3 Crowds of sick people—blind, lame, or paralyzed—lay on the porches.[b] >>>>>>>5 One of the men lying there had been sick for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him and knew he had been ill for a long time, he asked him, “Would you like to get well?” 7 “I can’t, sir,” the sick man said, “for I have no one to put me into the pool when the water bubbles up. Someone else always gets there ahead of me.”
    8 Jesus told him, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and walk!”
    9 Instantly, the man was healed! He rolled up his sleeping mat and began walking! But this miracle happened on the Sabbath, 10 so the Jewish leaders objected. They said to the man who was cured, “You can’t work on the Sabbath! The law doesn’t allow you to carry that sleeping mat!”
    11 But he replied, “The man who healed me told me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’”
     
  7. J.D.

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    Nice post. It does a great job of distinguishing between the two schools.
     
  8. quantumfaith

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    I must assume that this is an attempt at a bit of theological humor? Or perhaps you are proposin this as a "lemma or corollary" to total depravity?
     
    #8 quantumfaith, Dec 14, 2010
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  9. quantumfaith

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    "But to all who did receive him. He gave them the right to become children of God, to those who believe in his name. (John 1:12)

    The one who believes in the son has eternal life. (John 3:36)

    "Anyone who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgement but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24)

    John 3:16
    John 3:18
    John 5:38,40
    John 6:40,47

    Seems pretty clear that faith and unbelief form the dividing line between being spiritually dead and being born again.
     
  10. Tom Butler

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    You forgot John 1:13 "...which were born, not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man, but of God."

    And, although repentance and faith are important factors in salvation, they are given to us by God. Thus, God provides everything needed for salvation.
     
  11. quantumfaith

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    Does even the most ardent Arminian think that God did not make all provisions for salvation? I think not. In fact, I do not think anyone on this board even approaches that. What we do disagree on is whether (and or) man himself has any role whatsover to play, any obligation, any responsiblity, any assent of the will et al. with regard to the salvation experience.

    But I do thank you kindly for reminding me of that scripture, although, you and I probably tackle its meaning and emphasis differently. I do agree, man just doesn't wake up one day and decide, "oh I think I will meet God and get saved today".
     
  12. zrs6v4

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    Can you please exegete this passage and explain how you came to the conclusion that this definitely without a doubt shows that a depraved man, apart from God, can accept the gospel?

    I may have said to much in my question, but I will allow you to clear up my misunderstandings.


    thank you
     
  13. Tom Butler

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    I think we'll probably agree on a couple of things, including the assent by man of his will, and the necessity of repentance and faith. Man is also responsible for his sin and is commanded to repent on several occasions in the scriptures.

    The reason I quoted John 1:13 is that nearly every non-Calvinist will go to the mat over free will, and will argue for sovereignty of God in every area except man's will. Just wanted to stimulate some thinking.

    Where we probably part company is the extent of free will, which God allows us to have. I suspect you will hold that God gives it from the start. I hold that man operates freely within his nature, and in his fallen lost state freely rejects the command to repent.

    Then, when the Holy Spirit regenerates the lost soul, and gives grants him repentance and faith, he operates freely within that new nature to repent and believe for salvation. This is probably the sticking point between Cals and non-Cals--the separation of regeneration and salvation as two separate things.
     
    #13 Tom Butler, Dec 14, 2010
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  14. webdog

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    Not true. I believe God is sovereign over the will. If I give my son a choice between two movies to see, I'm still sovereign over his will.
     
  15. quantumfaith

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    A couple of definitions of "regeneration" that I have come across.

    "regeneration is that act of God by which the principle of the new life is implanted in man, and the governing disposition of the soul is made holy" (Berkoff)

    "the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life" (Grudem)

    If regeneration means to receive new life and a holy disposition of the soul, how can one understand that event as preceding faith without denying in effect that salvation is by faith?
     
    #15 quantumfaith, Dec 14, 2010
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  16. pinoybaptist

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    Like Dr. Temperance Brennan would say: "you are saying demanding faith when you already know the other is totally incapable of it is totally unreasonable. I agree, Booth."
     
  17. Luke2427

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    Because salvation and regeneration are two different things just like heads and tales are two different things.
     
  18. quantumfaith

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    Respectfully, I disagree.

    "But these things are w ritten so that you may believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and by believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31)

    Paul teaches the same sequence in I Timothy 1:16

    "But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

    Now, if you and I simply "pass each other in the night" on the definition of regeneration, then we may indeed have common ground. It seems to me, what you refer to as "regeneration" may be what I think of as conviction.
     
  19. quantumfaith

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    Webdog, precisely. God is sovereign, if for no other reason, He is the one that created the entire "universal sample space" of choices. It was by His creative act that the parameters for every, action and reaction in the micro, macro and atomic realms.
     
  20. Jarthur001

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    From the same website....

    Where as others believe the Bible......



    Psalms 105:25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

    Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

    Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.

    Proverbs 19:21 [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings [are] of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

    Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:

    Isaiah 14:26 This [is] the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this [is] the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

    Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

    Isaiah 43:13 Yea, before the day [was] I [am] he; and [there is] none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

    Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

    Lamentations 3:37 Who [is] he [that] saith, and it cometh to pass, [when] the Lord commandeth [it] not?

    Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

     

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