Serious question for Calvinists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by saturneptune, Jun 15, 2006.

  1. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    This is NOT a debate question, this is a question to learn for Calvinists. Is it possible for a non-elect person to fully understand the Gospel, the way to heaven, but live out his life realizing he is one of the non-elect, or are all non-elect not interested in spiritual matters because God chose not to regenerate them? Thanks for your responses.
     
  2. Rippon

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    An unregenerate person can't fully understand the gospel . It is an impossibility .

    The person without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness , and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit . ( I Corinthians 2:14 -- TNIV )
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Agreed.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
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    I would say no. Scripture tells us that the unsaved man both, elect and reprobate, is dead in his sin.

    As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." Rm. 3:10-12 [NKJV]

    No one is seeking God, both elect and non-elect. It takes the supernatural work of God to enable one to hear and understand and believe the Gospel. The non-elect do not experience this so they never believe but in their sin choose to purse their own wicked ways.

    Now they may show "interest" in spiritual matters, but their eyes are not spiritually opened and they never taste of salvation, so the interest is more of an interest of intellect and curiosity, or an admiration for "religion".
     
  5. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    That is what I thought, just wanted to be sure from others with more background than me. Thanks.
     
  6. Brother Bob

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    So, would you all respond to the question of before you were saved did you know you were a sinner and lost in your own personal lives. Did you ever think to yourself before being saved that if I die this way I will go to hell? What did you feel when you were still a wordly person?
     
  7. J.D.

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    The non-elect may show interest in religion or spiritualism, and may investigate the gospel, but will in time be repelled by the truth and will believe a lie.
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    That is not an answer to my question?
     
  9. J.D.

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    BroBob my post was not an attempt to answer your question but I was addressing the OP.
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    Sorry J.D.
     
  11. 2BHizown

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    But the natural man( the unconverted) does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor. 2:14-16
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    There is a inward man and there is an outward man. Even the saved have a fleshly mind but walk after the Spirit. If you sow to the flesh ye shall of the flesh reap corruption but if you sow to the Spirit ye shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

    Can't you see it is talking about you cannot not serve God in the flesh or natural mind. "if through the Spirit ye shall reap life everylasting" then the Spirit must be there striving with the "lost man also".

    Job, chapter 32
    "7": I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.

    "8": But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
     
  13. webdog

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    The natural man is not in regards to the unconverted. 1 Corinthians 3:1 shows this.
     
  14. 2BHizown

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    1 Cor 2 : 14-16

    The man under the power of corruption, and never yet illuminated by the Spirit of God. Men unsanctified receive not the things of God. The truths of God are foolishness to such a mind. Evil inclinations and wicked principles render the man unwilling to enter into the mind of God. It is the quickening beams of the Spirit of truth and holiness that must help the mind to discern their excellency. Thus the natural man cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (Matthew Henry Commentary)
     
  15. webdog

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    Matthew Henry is wrong. Paul addressed these brothers, hence they were illuminated by the Spirit. We all have the "natural man" within us, and can give in to having "it" run our lives. These are carnal Christians, the "people of the flesh" Paul is speaking to.1Corinthians 3:1 Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ.


     
  16. 2BHizown

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    1 Cor. 3 : 1

    In this verse Paul is reprimanding the Christians for refusing to grow in grace, being content to remain as babes and not increasing their knowledge.
    See more on this in Matthew Henry's Commentary
     
  17. webdog

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    I would rather just read 1 Corinthians in context, not Matthew Henry, to understand what Paul is talking about regarding the "natural man" not knowing the deep things of God.
     
  18. 2BHizown

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    Thats fine, but would you not prefer to at least understand that in the first quote 1 Cor 2: 14 Paul is comparing the regenerate to the unregenerate but in that verse of ! Cor 3:1 he is speaking to challenge believers to grow in Christ and condemns division in the church?
     
  19. webdog

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    There is nothing about regeneration anywhere in chapter 2. Chapter 2 is dealing with knowing the "deep things of God". Read the verses up to 14 (including the entire chapter 1) and this is clear.
     
  20. J.D.

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    Oh I think it's quite clear that the context of 1 Cor 2 is a comparison between the converted and unconverted, the natural man being unconverted.

    (NKJV) 1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching [were] not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. 6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man (unconverted) The things which God has prepared for those who love Him (converted)." 10 But God has revealed them to us (converted) through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? (unconverted) Even so no one (unconverted) knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we (converted) have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we (converted) might know the things that have been freely given to us (converted) by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man (unconverted) does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him (unconverted); nor can he (unconverted) know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual (converted) judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we (converted) have the mind of Christ.

    Paul goes on to say that he could not speak to them AS to spiritual, but as carnal (fleshly). He say "I have to speak to you as if you were not even converted". And that he does.

    NKJV) 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able [to receive it,] and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?

    A harsh rebuke indeed. "Why do you say you're converted but you act like you're not?".

    Actually, "regenerate" and "unregenerate" would work better to understand these passages.
     

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