Serious Seeker

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KayDee, Jan 4, 2002.

  1. KayDee

    KayDee
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    Would it be possible to have a thread where serious seekers of the truth of the Doctrine of Election could post their questions? Then only those who would like to help someone understand the doctrine would patiently post their responses? The reason I ask this is I have been studying and trying to understand the doctrine for months now and am totally confused. Whenever I try to read a thread on Election, there is so much debating going on I can’t see through to the basics. Maybe we could call it Election 101.

    I so respect the intelligence/knowledge on this board but I have to admit I have a rough time understanding some of your $10.00 words. I have to keep a dictionary next to the PC just to muddle through and half the time the word is not even in the dictionary !!!! If we do this, could we keep the vocabulary to $1.00 words….heh, 50 cent words would be even better!!! I’m just a grandma with a high school education that love’s the Lord and wants to “know that I know” what the Word says & follow it.

    Could we also keep to what the Word says and not what Calvin, Augustine, & Spurgeon say. Not that I don’t respect their works, good grief, I have spent a fortune on their books, just ask my husband (btw, he’s at the poor farm).

    And it would be only fair to have the same thread going on Free Will. But same rules would apply – no debating – just a serious Q&A session.

    What do you think? Anyone want to disciple the seekers out there?

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    I would be glad to do that and I will even try to lose the $10 words. [​IMG] The problem will be keeping it on topic and away from rantings and ravings by those who disagree. Of course, as a moderator, I suppose I can take care of that.

    One note of caution: the citations of men such as Augustine, Calvin, Spurgeon, etc. increase our understanding. It is always helpful to read what others before us have said, not as a substitute for the Word but rather as a commentary on it. I do not agree with any of those men (or most others) entirely, but I think they have some valid help for us and should be used.
     
  3. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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  4. tyndale1946

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    Kaydee I understand where you are coming from and sometime we need to be like Peter when Christ asked him, Who do men say that I the Son of man am? We can respond in the same way Peter did but notice what Jesus was really asking. But whom say ye that I am? That is fine Peter but what does your heart tell you about me. Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God! Blessed art thou Simon Barjona for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee but my Father which art in heaven. Why did the Father reveal his Son to Peter because he was one of his elect.

    Election has nothing to do with the works of man, because if it does it can no longer be called election. This is not the type of election where we are casting a vote. Man has no vote and it is all of God or none of God.

    We can see this illustration of election in the 9th Chapter of Romans. Notice it says 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

    Now because God chose to elect some and not elect others does that make God unrighteous? The scriptures say God Forbid! What about the elect he gave to his Son to save were they better than the others? No! He did it because of his great love and mercy and his Son saved them because of his love for the Father.

    All the Father hath given me will come to me and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him the runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

    Sometime the reason we can't understand election is we see it as God chose someone for what he saw in them or what would be in them later. That is a trait of mankind our love is conditional I love you for what you have or can do for me. Not so with God his love is unconditional and he loves us in spite of ourselves

    I hope this helped you out and didn't confuse you any further, and if it helped you out give God all the credit and if it didn't just blame me! I also am a serious seeker of truth like yourself... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  5. KayDee

    KayDee
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    I am really looking forward to the opportunity to "pick your brains" - ouch!!! But, first, I'm going to read the links Chris gave....I'll be back.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  6. KayDee

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    First I want to thank you for taking the time to go over what I'm sure will be something you have explained numerous times before. With that said, here's my first question:

    1 Timothy 4:10
    "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

    I understand all doesn't always mean every single person individually, but here He seems to be Saviour to two groups of people:
    1. all and
    2. especially those who believe.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Kaydee I don't want to answer a question that was not directed to me. If this was for a specific person I know it was not Chris but the way it was worded it could have been for Pastor Larry. Who were you directing your question to?... Brother Glen
     
  8. KayDee

    KayDee
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    tyndale1946

    Actually I was directing my question towards Chris, Pastor Larry or yourself - anyone who is willing to help me with some questions I have (see my first post). I should have stated that. Sorry.
     
  9. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KayDee:
    First I want to thank you for taking the time to go over what I'm sure will be something you have explained numerous times before. With that said, here's my first question:

    1 Timothy 4:10
    "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

    I understand all doesn't always mean every single person individually, but here He seems to be Saviour to two groups of people:
    1. all and
    2. especially those who believe.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hi KayDee:

    First, we must look at what it doesn't mean. It does not mean that God is the Savior of all men in the same sense that he is the savior of all that believe, or else all - believers and non-believers - would be saved.

    Instead, it means that Christ is the Savior of all men in the sense that there is no other Savior anywhere, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) Christ is the only Savior of men. He is also the Savior of all men in a temporal sense, in that the judgment of God does not immediately fall upon their heads and they are allowed to go on living. John Gill said this:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Who is the Saviour of all men; in a providential way, giving them being and breath, upholding them in their beings, preserving their lives, and indulging them with the blessings and mercies of life; for that he is the Saviour of all men, with a spiritual and everlasting salvation, is not true in fact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  10. KayDee

    KayDee
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    Chris

    [​IMG] I should have seen that. Of course, all men aren't saved.

    But, I still see how someone might take that verse and say He came to save all men but only those who accept His free gift (those would be the especially) are truly His. This is where I struggle...those few verses that seem at first glance to refute the DoE. I'm sure to you there is no confusion there but to someone who has believed that they made the choice to believe all their life, verses like these stand out like neon lights!!! The more I study, though, the more I see this can't be the case.

    I have always believed that election was based on His knowledge of what I would do before the beginning of time. I have come to see through other uses of the word "know" in Scripture, that is not the case. However, I still don't know where to go to see that it means a love or intimate relationship other than the Cain and his wife "knowing". Obviously, it means more than acquainted there. When Christ said, "...I never knew you...", it seems to be reading into the vrese that He meant I never had a relationship with you, but obviously, He knows about everyone on earth so it must mean more than that. Oy veh!!!!! The Holy Spirit is working overtime to bring me understanding.

    Be patient with me, friends, I'm slow but once I "get it" I'll never forget it. There is just something ;) inside me telling me this is true.
     
  11. KayDee

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    Could you please explain to me the responsiblity of man in salvation...after He has regenerated you (is this the point of salvation?) so that you are able to believe. Doesn't the word repent (change direction we are going)indicate there is something we must do to receive salvation? The Word tells us we must repent and believe but we can't do that until He regenerates us and because of Irristable Grace, we will do that, right? Boy, if you can understand that question, you are good!!! It's difficult to ask a coherent question from a confused head.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  12. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KayDee:
    [​IMG] I should have seen that. Of course, all men aren't saved. But, I still see how someone might take that verse and say He came to save all men but only those who accept His free gift (those would be the especially) are truly His. This is where I struggle...those few verses that seem at first glance to refute the DoE. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What is key to interpretation is the analogy of faith :Scripture interpreting Scripture. People can, and have, gone down hereticla paths by basing theology on one or two "spoof-text" as John Gerstner named it.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm sure to you there is no confusion there but to someone who has believed that they made the choice to believe all their life, verses like these stand out like neon lights!!! The more I study, though, the more I see this can't be the case. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    There is always some confusion for all Bible readers. Anyone who says that they have the whole of Scripture figured out is a fool. Still, enough is clear in Scripture that we can establish a good systematic theology. Again, comparing Scripture with Scripture is the key. And good for you that you are determined to study these things for yourself. That is how believers become Calvinists! ;)
    One correction I would make to your statement: you did make a choice to believe; you were not saved against your will. But you were enabled to believe through regeneration, and you willingly chose Christ.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have always believed that election was based on His knowledge of what I would do before the beginning of time. I have come to see through other uses of the word "know" in Scripture, that is not the case. However, I still don't know where to go to see that it means a love or intimate relationship other than the Cain and his wife "knowing". Obviously, it means more than acquainted there. When Christ said, "...I never knew you...", it seems to be reading into the vrese that He meant I never had a relationship with you, but obviously, He knows about everyone on earth so it must mean more than that. Oy veh!!!!! The Holy Spirit is working overtime to bring me understanding.

    Be patient with me, friends, I'm slow but once I "get it" I'll never forget it. There is just something ;) inside me telling me this is true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You're not so slow. You show a willing heart to seek the truth, and in doing so the Holy Spirit will lead you!

    [ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
  13. KayDee

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    Chris
    I forgot to ask the question in the quote below :rolleyes::

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have always believed that election was based on His knowledge of what I would do before the beginning of time. I have come to see through other uses of the word "know" in Scripture, that is not the case. However, I still don't know where to go to see that it means a love or intimate relationship other than the Cain and his wife "knowing". Obviously, it means more than acquainted there. When Christ said, "...I never knew you...", it seems to be reading into the vrese that He meant I never had a relationship with you, but obviously, He knows about everyone on earth so it must mean more than that. Oy veh!!!!! The Holy Spirit is working overtime to bring me understanding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Could you give me the references to how we know a love relationship is in view here?

    Also, I shouldn't post two questions in a row - it's easy to miss one:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Could you please explain to me the responsiblity of man in salvation...after He has regenerated you (is this the point of salvation?) so that you are able to believe. Doesn't the word repent (change direction we are going)indicate there is something we must do to receive salvation? The Word tells us we must repent and believe but we can't do that until He regenerates us and because of Irristable Grace, we will do that, right? Boy, if you can understand that question, you are good!!! It's difficult to ask a coherent question from a confused head. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You touched on it with this but could you explain more about the repentance:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One correction I would make to your statement: you did make a choice to believe; you were not saved against your will. But you were enabled to believe through regeneration, and you willingly chose Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Okay, so He makes our will the same as His will at regeneration and then we want to make the choice to choose Him, right? So, why does it take some of us sooooooo long to make the choice even when we know we should? And, why do some of us make the choice and then let the world creep back in and keep us from serving Him (which is what I did)?

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  14. JAMES2

    JAMES2
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    KayDee:
    I think you will get alot of very good information from the people on this board. Have an open mind, pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten you so you can "see" the truth of Election. The verse in the bible that says: "The truth shall set you free," finally was clear to me after I understood the Doctrine of Election. It truly does set you free.

    May I recommend a couple of books that really helped me in my search for the truth?

    1.The Five Points of Calvinism, by David N. Steele
    2. The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, by Loraine Boettner (This is a really good book. It is written without any 10.00 words. Maybe a couple of 5.00 words, but really easy to understand).
    3. The Sovereignty of God, by Arthur W. Pink
    You may also be interested in the following website:
    http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/pinks_archive.htm

    James2
     
  15. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Chris
    I forgot to ask the question in the quote below :
    quote:
    I have always believed that election was based on His knowledge of what I would do before the beginning of time. I have come to see through other uses of the word "know" in Scripture, that is not the case. However, I still don't know where to go to see that it means a love or intimate relationship other than the Cain and his wife "knowing". Obviously, it means more than acquainted there. When Christ said, "...I never knew you...", it seems to be reading into the vrese that He meant I never had a relationship with you, but obviously, He knows about everyone on earth so it must mean more than that. Oy veh!!!!! The Holy Spirit is working overtime to bring me
    understanding.
    Could you give me the references to how we know a love relationship is in view here? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    KayDee:

    There is a multiplicity of texts describing the love of God for the elect. And the love of God is poured on the elect unconditionally; that is, that the elect in no way earn God’s love but rather are chosen to receive it. The great error of Arminianism is the belief that God loves all people in the same way. This is unscriptural. God loves all of creation in a benevolent way, in that he allows unrepentant sinners to live and prosper and the rain falls on their crops as well as the elect’s, but his special love is for his people. God also hates sinners – not just the sin. In Psalm 5 he tells us “5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. 6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. . Yet God loves the righteous (those considered righteous by faith):

    Psalms 5:12 For You, O LORD, will bless the righteous; With favor You will surround him as with a shield.
    Psalms 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
    Psalms 14:5 There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.
    Psalms 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their cry.
    Psalms 34:17 The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears, And delivers them out of all their troubles.
    Psalms 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous, But the LORD delivers him out of them all.

    Psalm 139 speaks wonderfully of the intimate, knowing love of God for the elect. In the NT God’s love for the elect is explicitly and implicitly set forth. In 1 John 4 we read:

    7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

    And in John 10, Jesus tells us:

    10b I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12“But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13“The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15“As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

    Also we are told in Eph 5:

    25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

    I could go on, but the point of God’s love for his own is evident.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, I shouldn't post two questions in a row - it's easy to miss one:

    quote:

    Could you please explain to me the responsiblity of man in salvation...after
    He has regenerated you (is this the point of salvation?) so that you are able
    to believe. Doesn't the word repent (change direction we are going)indicate
    there is something we must do to receive salvation? The Word tells us we
    must repent and believe but we can't do that until He regenerates us and
    because of Irristable Grace, we will do that, right? Boy, if you can
    understand that question, you are good!!! It's difficult to ask a coherent
    question from a confused head.
    You touched on it with this but could you explain more about the repentance: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Man is responsible to respond to God, not in spite of God’s sovereignty, but because of God’s sovereignty. One can only be responsible to obey to a higher power. If God were not Sovereign, man would not be held responsible for responding.

    Salvation is not at regeneration, but at the point of trusting faith. Regeneration must precede faith, or else faith is a work of man needed to acquire salvation. God regenerates, then gives the gift of faith to the elect.

    Repentance is also necessary for salvation. But how is this not a works salvation? The antinomian Arminian attempts to get around this by saying repentance is not a necessary component of saving faith. Yet Scripture is quite clear that repentance is required. But both repentance and faith are not the works of men, but the works of God. God calls, God regenerates, and God gives the gifts of faith and repentance:

    Ephes. 2:8-9 (ESV) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    2 Tim. 2:25 (ESV) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
    Philip. 1:29 (ESV) For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
    Romans 12:3 (ESV) For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
    quote:

    One correction I would make to your statement: you did make a choice to
    believe; you were not saved against your will. But you were enabled to
    believe through regeneration, and you willingly chose Christ.
    Okay, so He makes our will the same as His will at regeneration and then we want to
    make the choice to choose Him, right? So, why does it take some of us sooooooo long
    to make the choice even when we know we should? And, why do some of us make the
    choice and then let the world creep back in and keep us from serving Him (which is what
    I did)?

    In His Grace
    KayDee <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Saving faith follows immediately after regeneration. There are not regenerate people walking around who are not believers. Regeneration prior to faith is the order of salvation, but it is immeasurable in time to us. If someone has nto yet trusted Christ, they have not been regenerated.

    The reason the world creeps back in our lives is that we are still a people of the flesh, even though we have been regenerated. This life is a process of gradual sanctification, and we remain sinners struggling against the flesh. Paul described this in Romans 7.

    [ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
  16. KayDee

    KayDee
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    Chris - Thank you so much for spending the time to write these wonderful explanations. I'm going to print these out and "think" on them and pray the Holy Spirit gives me the understanding beyond a doubt. Fear not :D, though, I will return. I just need to sort out and organize my thoughts.

    James - I've been to the Pink site many times and have learned much. It probably is the source that made me search the hardest. I will definitely buy those books - thank you for the recommendation. I'm very excited about this opportunity to discuss my questions since everyone I know is Arminian.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  17. JAMES2

    JAMES2
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    KayDee:
    Those books I recommended are really good. I'm so happy that GOD, by HIS GRACE has brought you to your search for the truth.

    The truth of the gospel is the complete and total SOVEREIGNITY OF GOD. GOD EVERYTHING!!! MAN --- absolutely NOTHING!!!!ALL IS GRACE. Isn't God great? HE brought you to a site where you can receive alot of positive input. I'm very interested in what you think of the books. And there are alot of people here that are more than willing to help in any way they can.
    James2
     
  18. KayDee

    KayDee
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    In Romans 9, it is very clear that God chooses some and not others. Those of the Arminian camp, say this is referring to the nation Israel - right? How can they say that when he gives individuals as examples and then in verse 24 he says He has called those from the Gentiles also? Is there anything else in Chpater 9 I am not seeing that shows these verses are speaking of individuals and not the nation Israel? Thanks again for your help.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  19. KayDee

    KayDee
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    Tyndale 1946

    When I went back to study the responses you all have given me, I noticed I was so excited to ask my first question I didn’t respond to your first post on this thread. Please forgive me – that was rude.
    Quote
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I understand where you are coming from and sometime we need to be like Peter when Christ asked him, Who do men say that I the Son of man am? We can respond in the same way Peter did but notice what Jesus was really asking. But whom say ye that I am? That is fine Peter but what does your heart tell you about me. Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God! Blessed art thou Simon Barjona for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee but my Father which art in heaven. Why did the Father reveal his Son to Peter because he was one of his elect.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Yes, isn’t it wonderful we can trust the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to us. I believe He has been leading me in studying the DoE for several months now. I can’t seem to let it go.

    Quote
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sometime the reason we can't understand election is we see it as God chose someone for what he saw in them or what would be in them later. That is a trait of mankind our love is conditional I love you for what you have or can do for me. Not so with God his love is unconditional and he loves us in spite of ourselves<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think another reason we have trouble understanding is we have to overcome all the teaching we have received for years. I need to look at the Scriptures without all the presuppositions I already have – not always the easiest thing for me to do!!! But, I know if I seek His guidance I will arrive at the truth.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  20. KayDee

    KayDee
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    James2

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm very interested in what you think of the books<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'll definitely let you know what I think when I'm trough reading them. Thanks again for recommending them.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     

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