Shades of German history in US

Discussion in 'Politics' started by prophecynut, Aug 24, 2005.

  1. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    AMERICANS SURRENDERING LIBERTIES: SHADES OF GERMAN HISTORY

    By Pastor Chuck Baldwin

    August 23, 2005

    NewsWithViews.com

    It appears that a strengthened U.S.A. Patriot Act will soon sail through Congress with little opposition or consternation on the part of the American people. The new Patriot Act is even more stringent than the original. In addition, many of the more egregious elements of the Patriot Act which were originally scheduled to sunset are made permanent in the latest version. And the vast majority of the American people do not seem to mind.

    For one thing, Americans seem to have accepted the notion that they must rely on the federal government to take care of them. Lost to most is an independent, self-reliant spirit. After all, Americans already look to Uncle Sam for food stamps, welfare payments, commercial and farm subsidies, and faith-based handouts; why should they object to the federal government's promise to now provide their complete security even if it does mean the sacrifice of their liberties? To most Americans, security seems much more valuable than freedom!

    It is incumbent upon each of us to remember that this is exactly the way Adolph Hitler and the Nazi Party took control in Germany. They did not seize power by force; the German people happily gave them power on the promise of national security.

    Since 9/11, even those Americans who in the past have championed freedom and independence now demonstrate an obvious readiness to gladly yield their liberties. It does not seem to matter one iota that they are losing their right of privacy and their right to be secure in their own homes.

    When told that the Patriot Act is practically a carbon copy of Hitler's Enabling Act, most Americans either yawn with indifference or retort with disbelief. They seem to be oblivious to reality.

    For some, their personal support for President Bush will not allow them to look objectively at the details of his Patriot Act (or virtually anything else he does). They truly don't want to believe that Bush could ever promote something untoward. Yet, was this not the same reasoning used by the German people in the 1930's? They loved and trusted Hitler so much, they could not bring themselves to believe that anything he did could be wrong.

    Americans need to reread the principles expressed by their Founding Fathers. Specific to the topic, Thomas Jefferson rightly said, "In questions of power, then, let no more be said of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." It would seem many Americans today no longer believe that.

    For others, the fact that they do not believe themselves to have yet been personally affected by the new Gestapo-like powers given to the executive branch by the Patriot Act gives them a sense of (false) peace. Their attitude is usually expressed by statements such as, "Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to fear." Of course, such thinking is extremely naïve and short-sighted.

    Our entire way of life is predicated upon the conviction that we are presumed innocent of any wrongdoing and only by a substantiated and cumbersome process of discovery and prosecution can that assumption be taken away from us. The Patriot Act totally reverses that historic principle.

    Now Americans are presumed to be guilty of wrongdoing and mechanisms are in place to begin the process of proving it; and, furthermore, the discovery portion of this process may now be done under cover of darkness and secrecy. Gone is the presumption of innocence. Under the Patriot Act, gone is the right to an attorney. Gone is the right to habeas corpus. Gone is the right to a speedy trial. Gone is the right to be secure in your papers and effects. The Patriot Act is turning America into a Nazi-style police state. And that is not hyperbole!

    Furthermore, Americans need to wake up to the reality that there already exists a gargantuan effort afoot to put a military-style federal apparatus in place. For example, according to syndicated columnist Charley Reese, "In recent years, federal law enforcement has expanded to the point where there is now an equivalent of five military divisions armed and invested with the power to make arrests." And this does not include the fact that certain of our military and C.I.A. personnel are also being trained and instructed in domestic law enforcement. Can people not see the writing on the wall?

    Another thing people need to think about is the definition of "wrongdoing." The argument that, "If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about" loses its legitimacy when "the powers that be" can alter what "wrong" is at will.

    The Patriot Act so loosely defines "terrorism" that virtually anyone or anything could be considered "an act of terrorism" including speech! Plus, Bush lovers need to remember that Dubya will not be president forever. They need to think about the likes of Hillary Clinton or Janet Reno interpreting and enforcing the Patriot Act!

    Then again, we have to consider that there is a sizeable percentage of the American people who have already surrendered their liberties as a state of mind. They have been successfully programmed to accept any and all government fetters. In their minds, they are already slaves to the state! After all, freedom is first a matter of the heart.

    The bottom line is, in the name of safety and security, the American people, as did the people of Germany in the 1930's, are willingly surrendering their liberties. One more 9/11-style attack will probably mean the end of whatever freedom is left. And sadly, the vast majority of the American people will probably be ok with that, as well.

    At the end of the day, however, the loss of freedom will not bring America peace and safety. Instead, destruction and tyranny will result. A simple look at German history proves that.


    Of course, America's founders rejected tyrannical government. However, it appears that many of today's Americans share more in common with German history than with their own.
     
  2. JGrubbs

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    Bush lovers need to remember that Dubya will not be president forever. They need to think about the likes of Hillary Clinton or Janet Reno interpreting and enforcing the Patriot Act!!!
     
  3. church mouse guy

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    Let's remember, JGrubbs, that Chuck Baldwin believes the war is illegal and calls for our immediate withdrawal.

    The real war lockdown happened under Woodrow Wilson who put Debs in prison for speaking against the war. And then FDR was no hero either because he locked up 120,000 Japanese, 2/3rds of whom were American citizens. FDR also hanged German spies who landed at Jacksonville, Long Island and intended to hang a couple more who landed in Maine, but FDR died in the company of his mistress at Warm Springs, Georgia, before he could hang the last German spies.

    The Patriot Act so far has involved 30 cases. If England had had a Patriot Act, they might have been spared the subway bombings.

    If Baldwin were to become President, he would need those powers that he now objects to in order to protect the nation. Baldwin might even want to put conservative Republicans in jail for rolling their eyes at him. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: etc, etc, etc.
     
  4. JGrubbs

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    Baldwin supports going after the terrorist who attacked us, including Osamma. He said that he wished Congress would have declared war with Osamma and AlQueda to make it a constitutional war. Baldwin also supports protecting our borders from the terrorist, which is more than our current president, who is leaving the borders open for the terrorist, is doing.

    As Dr. Baldwin said, even if George W. Bush has the purest of intentions, think about the likes of Hillary Clinton or Janet Reno interpreting and enforcing the Patriot Act!!!

    An excellent book that deals with the topic of the OP is Hitler's Cross by Erwin W. Lutzer, it is about how the church in pre-Nazi Germany helped Hitler rise to power.
     
  5. SeekingTruth

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    My reading of Baldwin is that he is opposed to anything Bush does. The links on his page lead you to the usual Bush hating web pages. I take anything he says with a large dose of salt (of course I take everyone the same way with the exception of the Word of God).

    Having said that, yes it does concern me that Hillary or someone like her would abuse the Patriot Act. But, Bill and Janet Reno didn't seem to bother with the rights of the people without the act. Have you heard of Waco or Ruby Ridge; using the IRS to persecute anti-Clinton demonstrators, etc. People of their ilk don't need the Patriot Act to abuse the freedoms of people. It might, however, make it easier for them.

    However, for Baldwin to draw a parallel between the US and Germany, read Hitler, is way out of line.
     
  6. elijah_lives

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    Hillary Clinton or Janet Reno interpreting and enforcing the Patriot Act!!!

    That's truly frightening...
     
  7. JGrubbs

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    Hitler's Cross

    [​IMG]

    by Erwin W. Lutzer forward by Ravi Zacharias

    The revealing story of how the Cross of Christ was used as a symbol of the Nazi agenda.

    Six million Jews dead The monstrosity of Adolph Hitler's "Third Reich" remains a stunning chapter in the pages of history. Although the power by which he hypnotized an entire nation is legendary, one question in particular begs an answer: Where was the church of Christ? Seduced by the Satanic majesty of The Fuhrer, church leaders throughout German allowed the Swastika a prominent place alongside the Christian cross in their sanctuaries. Nationalistic pride replaced the call of God to purity, and with few exceptions the German church looked away while Adolph Hitler implemented his "Final Solution" to his Jewish problem.

    How did this happen?
    In Hitler's Cross, Erwin W. Lutzer examines the lessons that may be learned from studying the deception of the church:
    · the dangers of confusing church and state
    · how the church lost its focus
    · the role of God in human tragedy
    · the parameters of Satan's freedom
    · the truth behind Hitler's hatred of the Jews
    · the faithfulness of God to His people who suffer for Him
    · comparisons between Hitler's rise and the coming reign of the Antichrist
    · America's hidden cross--her dangerous trends

    Hitler's Cross is the story of a nation whose church forgot its primary call and discovered its failure too late.

    Source: http://www.christianbookclearinghouse.com/hitlerscross.html
     
  8. church mouse guy

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    I've heard of the book before because we get Moody radio here and Erwin Lutzer spoke all the time. I like him and that book goes back a few years--1995. It dealt with D.James Kennedy's call to Redeem the Nation for Christ. The subject was things like combining the Cross and the American flag on the same symbol.

    Hitler was able to co-opt the church because the German church had been infected with Highger Criticism and Form Criticism and was dead after WW I. Hitler took the cross off churches and abolished Christmas long before WW II. The book would not deal with things like the Patriot Act, which deal with police powers during a war against terrorists. Without such powers, we would have been sitting ducks as the British were during the recent subway bombings in London.

    It is hard for me to want to trade additional terrorists attacks for more freedom for terrorists.

    Janet Reno is not attorney general anymore and she probably was the worst one in the history of the USA.

    However, she was followed by John Ashcroft, a Pentecostal generally hated by Baptists, yet Ashcroft probably was the greatest attorney general in the history of the USA.

    I don't think that the intelligent Republican has to accept the legal opinion of the Constitution Party on anything whatsoever because the Constitution Party holds the silly legal opinion that the current war in Iraq is unconstitutional and that the troops should be withdrawn immediately.

    Baldwin lost the election but he has never issued a statement saying that he supports the winner of the election and prays for him. Instead Baldwin and Peroutka have constantly sought to undermine the government and now have joined the far left again in a cry for the civil rights of terrorists. My opinion is that Woodrow Wilson and FDR would have put Baldwin in jail and I think that the FBI should consider Baldwin as dubious.

    By the way, since when did Fundamentalists like Baldwin acquire this great respect for Moody Bible Institute and Dr. Lutzer? Privately, Baldwin must condemn Moody Bible Institute as most Fundamentalists do. For one thing, Dr. Lutzer probably believes like Ashcroft that God The Holy Spirit still gives men gifts, as Dwight L. Moody certainly believed in the Secret Power that the Holy Spirit gave him, Secret Power being a book by Moody.

    Baldwin is enough to make a maggot sick of eating a hypocrite.
     
  9. JGrubbs

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    :rolleyes:

    [ August 25, 2005, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: JGrubbs ]
     
  10. Dragoon68

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    Here's an English translation of the text of Hilter's "Enabling Act":
    Please explain, in detail, how the "Patriot Act" corresponds, as you claim, to Hilter's "Enabling Act".

    In order to get the law passed, Hilter used intimidation by having his "Storm Troopers" invade the opera house chanting, "Full powers - or else! We want the bill - or fire and murder!!" and had them stand in the aisles of the German parliment to "influence" the vote.

    Please explain, in detail, how the Patriot Act was forced upon the US Congress by similar action.
     
  11. church mouse guy

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    They can no more explain that nazi tactics were not used in Congress than they can explain how Dr. Lutzer's 1995 book against D.James Kennedy has anything to do with the subject or how they can explain why Fundamentalists who do not believe in the perputuity of spirtitual gifts suddenly support the Moody Bible Institute and their publications and Dr. Lutzer.

    Thanks, Dragoon, for exposing this far-right hypocristy against the GOP while ignoring the fact that Britain wishes that they had had a Patriot Act to help prevent the subway deaths and while ignoring the true wartime civil rights violations of Woodrow Wilson and those of the playboy of Warm Springs, Georgia, FDR.

    cmg
     
  12. JGrubbs

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    The Enabling Act was passed by the Reichstag on March 23, 1933. Another law from July 14, 1933 prevented the foundation of new political parties. I'm sure CMG would be in favor of a law like that passing here as well. :rolleyes:

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act

    They didn't have to use force to get the US Congress to give us the Patriot Act, they used 9/11 and the fear of terrorism. Some people will do just about anything if they have enough fear in them, they didn't have to send the "Storm Troopers" to invade the opera house, they simply got on national television and said, "Support the Patriot Act or we will all be blown up by the next terrorist attack."

    "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither safety nor liberty." --Benjamin Franklin

    "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." --James Madison

    "September 11 happened in part because Americans naively trusted their government to protect them. To conclude from 9/11 that the government should be more sacrosanct is among the worst possible lessons that could be drawn." --James Bovard

    [ August 25, 2005, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: JGrubbs ]
     
  13. church mouse guy

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    Well, so far the Republicans have not done anything to limit political expression as the recent Democrat demonstrations against the war have illustrated. And history has shown that it has been the Democrats who have been most repressive during wartime. So the fear of state control, as Dr. Lutzer points out, is more likely when programs such as Reclaiming America for Christ openly ally the cross and the flag. Ironically, it is unlikely that Fundamentalism as expressed by Baldwin would have any use for Moody Bible Institute beyond this book, which they misapply. JGrubbs, what do you think of this link below, which was one of the targets of the Lutzer book in 1995?

    http://www.reclaimamerica.org/

    Prophecynut, sorry to involve your thread so much with Dr. Lutzer, but in 1995, he could hardly have been warning about the Patriot Act when his real concern was the church moving toward the government and the two becoming entwined as one. More likely, Prophecynut, is that Dr. Lutzer might be against the Faith Based Initiative, used to buy religious left votes.
     
  14. JGrubbs

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    Does Lutzer's book state that Dr. Kennedy's ministry is the reason for his book, or is that just your opinion again? I do see how any ministry like Reclaiming America could be like the pre-Nazi church in Germany if they allow themselves to show blind party loyalty to any one party or politician.

    It was the church that rallied behind Hitler to bring him to power, who was it that Karl Rove wined and dined to get Bush re-elected in 2004?

    While the Patriot Act may not be used to against Christians today, I do see how it could be a tool of the Antichrist to attack the Christians in the future, and as Lutzer points out in his book there are comparisons between Hitler's rise and the coming reign of the Antichrist, who I also believe will be brought to power with a majority support of the churches in America.

    So, no, Bush is not Hitler and America is not Nazi Germany, but the church in pre-Nazi Germany gave blind support to Hitlers party, just like the churches in American today are split in their blind support of the two major parties. As the two parties move closer together, the split in the churches will begin to close and we will see the churches in America rally behind "God's man" who will bring destruction to our nation.
     
  15. church mouse guy

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    By extension of your logic, any Christian who votes for any government is involving church and state. That is not what Lutzer wrote about at all because I used to hear him on Moody Radio all the time. By the way, we have never heard how Moody Bible Institute got to be used by Baldwin? Lutzer in 1995 was writing a history and warning about stuff like The Center for Reclaiming America http://www.reclaimamerica.org/

    The Patriot Act is not excessive as the left wing has claimed. What is excessive is Islamic terrorists on Nine Eleven and more recently in London, England. The secular majority could have passed the Patriot Act without the Christian minority so the issue is extremely academic. And we all know that the Godly God's man in this past election was Peroutka and Rev. Baldwin, the only priest in the contest. I think that voting for Baldwin would be mixing church and state excessively.

    The Patriot Act has involved about 30 cases since it was first passed. Among other things, it allows police to visit churches to see what is being preached. It allows those preaching in the pulpit the violent overthrow of the government to be checked.
     
  16. elijah_lives

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    If Bush was Hitler, and the GOP was fascist (as some on the left assert), those who dissent and protest would be doing so in concentration camps. The overblown rhetoric of the left is serving to innoculate us against their positions, because it is not even close to reality.

    Powers of government can be abused by anyone in office, which is why the characters of those we elect are so important.
     
  17. church mouse guy

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    The Center for Reclaiming America is not the reason for Dr. Lutzer's book and I am glad that Moody Bible Institute has become respectable to this board! However, Dr. Lutzer in broadcasts was speaking in the late 1990s about what Dr. Kennedy was doing although not by name. For one thing, Dr. Kennedy mailed me a cross pin with the American flag on it. I discarded it. What Dr. Lutzer was warning about was that we must put the church ahead of the state and not worry about the issues that occupy The Center for Reclaiming America.

    What keeps getting overlooked in this issue about Germany is that it was the birthplace of the 19th century school of higher criticism, developed by German professors in universities. Higher criticism is an all-out attack on Scripture, saying that Moses did not write the 1st 5 books of The Holy Bible, etc. This movement spawned the lower critics after WW I, or form critics, who attacked the accuracy of the translations and the sources of the documents, etc. So the point is that the German church was all but dead before WW I.

    It is true that the apostate church in Germany wanted to hope in Hitler, but they were shortly dealt with as the cross was pulled off churches and nazi symbols were installed and Christmas was abolished. So the apostate churches only provided Hitler with a temporary veneer of respectablility. It really is an indictment of liberalism that the human rights abuse in Germany was considered fashionable because without Christianity there is no basis for resisting human rights abuse. The left never learns because you see people in the USA supporting Commandant Castro, Hugo Chavez, and the islamofascists in spite of their horrible human rights records.

    It is not wrong for Christians to vote but it is wrong for Christians not to vote. That Bush was chosen over Peroutka only proves that Peroutka did not do his homework, because very few Christians think the way he does.

    I think that Elijah_Lives has made a very good point that the overblown rhetoric of the left is tiresome because they are not suffering because of this law but are living off the fat of the land. How many Nine Elevens do we need before we began to deal with domestic terrorist enemies?
     
  18. kubel

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    First, I'm a nazi history nut! So I'm going to step to the plate:

    The Patriot Act and the Ermächtigungsgesetz are entirely different, but they do have one similar characteristic. Giving up freedoms that are guaranteed by the constitution.

    1) The nazis created an atmoshpere of confusion, in which most people would agree the law was nessessary. The nazis started a fire in 1933 at the reichstag building and successfully blamed the act of terrorism on the communists. The people of germany fell for it.

    2) Opponents of the bill understood that by allowing the bill to be passed, it would eventually destroy their democracy along with many of their freedoms.

    The government may not have ulterior motives right now, like the nazis did in the 1930's. But I am saying this act is opening the door for big problems in the future.

    Man never learns from history.

    BTW: I am glad our soldiers are taking care of business with regards to Israels enemies in the middle east. So don't think im some left wing communist.
     
  19. church mouse guy

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    What freedoms are we giving up?
     
  20. JGrubbs

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    America under the Patriot Act. One person claims to “smell something,” and the feds can round up everyone’s records. From books you check out to credit card purchases, money transfers to medications, your activities are now subject to federal surveillance. Uncle Sam now has a blank check to search and pry—all in the name of security.

    <snip>

    It empowers federal agents to cannibalize Americans’ e-mail with Carnivore wiretaps, allows federal agents to commandeer library records, and requires banks to surrender personal account information. It also authorizes federal agents to confiscate bulk cash from travelers who fail to fill out Customs Service forms disclosing how much money they are taking out of or into the U.S. and allows the attorney general to order long-term detentions if he has “reasonable grounds to believe that the alien is engaged in any activity that endangers the national security of the United States.” Last year alone, Ashcroft personally issued 170 emergency domestic spying warrants, permitting agents to carry out wiretaps and search homes and offices for up to 72 hours before requesting a search warrant from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

    Source: The American Conservative
     

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