Sheep and Goats

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by pituophis, May 15, 2006.

  1. pituophis

    pituophis
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    I saw, in another section, questions about sheep and goats. I wanted to ask a specific question: Is there anywhere in the Bible that indicates that a goat has become a sheep?
     
  2. Helen

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    They are all members of the bovid subfamily, called Caprinae which includes goats, sheep and the "goat antelope." Another more familiar member of this subfamily is the North American mountain goat (Oreamnos americanus).

    The family or sub-family is probably the closest we can come to defining the Biblical 'kind' or 'baramin.' In other words, goats and sheep are part of the same created kind. In behaviour, goats tend to be more independent and sturdy while sheep are usually more dependant and require much more intensive care.

    The parable in Matthew 25 concentrated on behavior, not on physical differences.
     
  3. russell55

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    Is there anywhere in the Bible that indicates that a goat has become a sheep?

    No. There are sheep yet outside the fold, but a goat doesn't become a sheep.
     
  4. whatever

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    You mean a goat cannot freely choose to become a sheep? How unfair.
     
  5. russell55

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    Goats don't want to be sheep. They don't like sheep. And they especially don't like shepherds.

    Goats just wanna be goats.....
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I think this passage might relate to this discussion somehow:

    John 10:25-30

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. npetreley

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    Isn't this a question for an evolution vs. creation forum? ;)
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

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  9. Helen

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    We have bred sheep and goats the way we have bred dogs -- to get specific traits. Therefore they look and act differently. However sheep and goats are basically the same kind of animal, just as all dogs are the same kind of animal (even though they look and act differently, too). In fact, various dogs look a whole lot more different from each other than sheep do from goats! Go back to the time of Jesus, please, and note that sheep and goats were known to be the same type of animal, speciated by men for different purposes. Can a goat become a sheep? Not today, no. Then a goat and a sheep were easily interbred and essentially the same kind of animal.

    Therefore Jesus is not talking about being born differently or about predestination here, but about behavior, as He states quite clearly.
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

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    If the sheep and the goats were the same, as you say, then why does Jesus describe them as being different and seperate them? I am thinking you are trying to make a theological parable a biology lesson and change the message to suit you.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. epistemaniac

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    Helen... the point of the passage is what Jesus does, not any believer or unbeliever's behavior. The Pharisees were not upset about about people's behavior, they were upset about what Jesus was claiming. Read the whole passage:

    Joh 10:24-38 esv So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.
    (25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
    (26) but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
    (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
    (28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    (29) My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
    (30) I and the Father are one.
    (31) The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
    (32) Jesus answered them, I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?
    (33) The Jews answered him, It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.
    (34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, you are gods?
    (35) If he called them gods to whom the word of God cameScripture cannot be broken (36) do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?
    (37) If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
    (38) but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

    .... look again at all of Jesus' claims about what He does in verses 24-30.... and He does in fact speak to the subject of predestination in this passage. He tells us that He knows who His sheep are, and we know that Jesus, being God, knew who were His from the very beginning. As a matter of fact, it is said that Jesus knew all men's hearts, a prerogative of God alone. Now, if He knew who His sheep were before they ever became a "sheep", and, if He knew who would not be a part of His "flock", then He is clearly speaking about individual's salvation, not their behavior.

    you said
    Wow... I hate to have to point this out, but.... an animal's behavior does not dictate what kind of animal it is, rather, it's nature determines this. A goat does not suddenly become a sheep, or vice versa, just because it might try and act like one. [​IMG]

    Even more importantly, if there was no real difference during Jesus' time between what a goat or what a sheep was, if they were "essentially" the same kind of animal, it seems rather odd that Jesus would go to so much trouble pointing out that they were so different. After all, if there was no real or as you say "essential" difference, then the fact that sheep would be on one side and goats on the other on the final day of judgment, seems to make little sense, wouldn't you agree? If both groups are essentially the same kind of animal as you claim, then Jesus was hopelessly confused about who would be going to heaven and who would be going to hell.

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  12. pituophis

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    I'm glad to see that some of you are addressing my question correctly. Did the goat choose to be born a goat? Did the sheep choose to be born a sheep?

    I did not choose to be born a white male in America. God chose that. Just as he has chosen who the sheep are and who the goats are. His sovereign choice! For His sovereign purpose!

    There are lost sheep. But a goat does not turn into a sheep! The Bible tells us that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. It also says that He will lose NONE of them. ALL sheep will be saved (found). So is there anything I can do (or not do) to change this number of sheep (or goats)? If I fail to tell my neighbor about Christ, will my actions keep him from responding to the gospel and going to heaven? NO. God will save His sheep.
     
  13. pituophis

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    I'm glad to see that some of you are addressing my question correctly. Did the goat choose to be born a goat? Did the sheep choose to be born a sheep?

    I did not choose to be born a white male in America. God chose that. Just as he has chosen who the sheep are and who the goats are. His sovereign choice! For His sovereign purpose!

    There are lost sheep. But a goat does not turn into a sheep! The Bible tells us that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. It also says that He will lose NONE of them. ALL sheep will be saved (found). So is there anything I can do (or not do) to change this number of sheep (or goats)? If I fail to tell my neighbor about Christ, will my actions keep him from responding to the gospel and going to heaven? NO. God will save His sheep.
     
  14. James_Newman

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    Everyone knows you can tell a sheep by it's fruit. We are supposed to be like a sheep planted by the rivers of waters that bringeth forth her fruit in her season.
     
  15. Me4Him

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    I know a "lamb" who became a (Scape) Goat, then turned back into a "lamb". :D :D

    And he possess the ability to change all "goats" into "Sheep". :eek: :eek: [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  16. epistemaniac

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    Jer 13:23 csb Can an Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Can a leopard take away its spots? Neither can you start doing good, for you always do evil.

    Me4him, you said
    this is one of the first things you have ever said that I can agree with! Unless God does in fact do the changing, the goats will remain goats, for only He can work the miracle of changing goats into sheep, for the goat can no more turn himself or herself into a sheep then.. well.. then an Ethopian can change the color of their skin or a leopard change it's spots... or any more than a person can cause themselves to be born the first time, let alone the second!

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  17. npetreley

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    Okay, I've had enough of this ridiculous genetic lesson and the behavior "theory". Let's look at the passage in question.

    Nothing about behavior here. He will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. This is clearly talking about separating two different types of animals.


    The sheep are identified as you who are blessed by my Father. That's why they're sheep.

    The kingdom was prepared for the sheep since the creation of the world. They were prepared for you. Not prepared for those who did good.

    They didn't become sheep because they behaved differently. They didn't become sheep because they were given a free will choice, "Would you like to be a sheep or a goat?" They were the sheep for whom the kingdom was prepared from the creation of the world.

    NOW, finally, we get to their behavior. But they have already been separated as sheep and goats.

    If the lesson was that "If you behave this way, you'll become a goat, but if you behave that way, you'll become a sheep", then surely the parable would have presented this information about their behavior first.

    More important, if the lesson was "If you behave this way you become a sheep..." then the lesson would be that salvation is by works.

    In fact, neither the sheep nor the goats were even aware of what "good" or "bad" it was they were doing...

    Now watch this one carefully...

    The righteous?!?! Did they become righteous by their behavior? Is this about works-based salvation? No, they are righteous because they are sheep, saved by grace, chosen before the foundation of the world.

    See? They had no clue. They were being told AFTER THE FACT that this is how they behaved.

    You who are cursed? Are they unsaved because they didn't do the works the sheep did? Again, if that was the lesson, then you have works-based salvation.

    Again, they are told AFTER THE FACT that this is how they behaved. God didn't turn them into goats and then explain that He did it because they were bad. He showed them the evidence of the fact that they were goats.

    The description of their behavior is the evidence of who is a sheep and who is a goat. It is not the reason one is a sheep and one is a goat.

    Once again, the righteous. If they became righteous/sheep due to their behavior, then you are advocating a works-based salvation.

    Enough of this damned nonsense. And I mean to use that word, because if this parable is about behavior, that's exactly the kind of nonsense it is. It is another gospel, and it is anathema.

    [ May 16, 2006, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: npetreley ]
     
  18. Hope of Glory

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    Yes. Justification is a process.

    It's not about spiritual salvation at all, except that goats are holy animals. God isn't going to call that which is going to the lake of fire forever "holy". Both represent saved people with different behaviors and mindsets.
     
  19. npetreley

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    Yes. Justification is a process.</font>[/QUOTE]Can you provide a quote that demonstrates that justifiction is by works and leads to righteousness?

    Your comment about goats being holy makes no sense and contradicts the text.

    [ May 16, 2006, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: npetreley ]
     
  20. Me4Him

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    Yes. Justification is a process.</font>[/QUOTE]Can you provide a quote that demonstrates that justifiction is by works and leads to righteousness?

    Your comment about goats being holy makes no sense and contradicts the text.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him,

    1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.(Jesus)

    Joh 3:3 Except a man be born again, (Opens the door) he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God

    which is by faith of Jesus Christ

    (offered) unto all

    and upon all them that believe:

    for there is no difference:



    Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Calvinist have a "bad habit" of redefining words (Faith=works) or are ignorant of what the scriptures actually mean.

    The wages of sin is death, and nothing short of death will pay those wages, how/why calvinist associate man's faith/behavior/seeking God as a "saving grace" for man to save himself, clearly demonstrates this ignorance.

    "Total depravity" describes man created in "Satan's image" rather than God's image.
     

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