Sheep?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by psalms109:31, Apr 20, 2011.

  1. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Matthew 9:
    The Workers Are Few
    35 Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. 36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. 38 Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.”

    He didn’t say they were goats without a herder, even though when they start hearing about eating His flesh and drinking His blood they would walk away from Him. It is true following a crowd does not mean that you are drawn by the Father.


    We all know only His sheep will believe. That only the one’s the Father gives will come to him. We know hat there are those ever hearing, but never perceiving. That before the cross everything most be fulfilled, to show Jesus is who He said He His. That Jesus had to die to pay the price of the sins of the world. That everything had to go the way the Father planned.

    To come to this point

    John 12:32
    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

    Matthew 28:18
    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    How did this verses change anything if anything?
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    early on Jesus went to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

    After he is lifted up[cross] the gospel goes worldwide, to all men...not Israel only.....

    The elect sheep are all over the world, Israel except for the remnant, rejected Him.Here is one illustration of this;
     
  3. Van

    Van
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    Reply to Psalms 109:31

    Hi, your post contains some statements I disagree with. Lets discuss them:

    It is true following a crowd does not mean that you are drawn by the Father.

    This is true, you could only be interested in finding out what had drawn the crowd. But many, probably most in the crowd had been drawn by the Father, the people were responding to the lovingkindness God had shown toward mankind. It is true following a crowd does not mean that you are drawn by the Father. Notice they glorified God because God had healed, verses 6-8.

    We all know only His sheep will believe.


    I would put it we know that only those who believe become His sheep. So from among "the sheep" of Matthew 9:36, some sheep are drawn by the Father's lovingkindness.

    That only the one’s the Father gives will come to him.

    This is a common misunderstand of John 6:37. This equates being drawn by the Father to being given by the Father. What John 6:37 actually says is all those given shall come to Me, and the word translated "come" carries with it the idea of arriving. So to paraphrase, all those given to Me arrive in Me. Thus the giving is when God puts individuals spiritually in Christ, not when individuals are drawn through the gospel.

    John 12:32 pretty much speaks for itself, all those who understand Christ died for them on the cross will be drawn to Christ by His lovingkindness, but being drawn by the gospel, and fully trusting in Christ along, are two different things. See Matthew 13 for one soil who was not drawn, and three soils who were.

    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. This simply says, in my opinion, that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me.
     
  4. psalms109:31

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    Scripture

    I am really looking forward to answer to this, has things changed after Jesus is lifted up or does everything remain the same?

    Is it so hard to see the scriptures the way they are and the way it has or not impacted the way things are now?

    Did not Jesus bring a new covenant or is the same as it was before the cross and Christ lifted up?
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    Before Christ died on the cross, everyone was under the Old Covenant system, but after Christ died, everyone is under the New Covenant System. In a sense, everyone, saint and sinner alike, was "bought" and "sanctified" when the "bondage" of the Old Covenant system was ended and everyone was put under, i.e set apart from the Old Covenant, under the New Covenant.

    John 12:32 pretty much speaks for itself, all those who understand Christ died for them on the cross will be drawn to Christ by His lovingkindness, but being drawn by the gospel, and fully trusting in Christ along, are two different things. See Matthew 13 for one soil who was not drawn, and three soils who were.

    "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." This simply says, in my opinion, that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me, because the New Covenant is in His Blood.
     
    #5 Van, Apr 21, 2011
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  6. psalms109:31

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    Believe

    Exodus 19:
    5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”


    Deuteronomy 7::
    6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.


    Zephaniah 3:12
    But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

    John 1:11
    He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.


    Matthew 10:33
    But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

    Ephesians 1:13
    And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
     
  7. Van

    Van
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    According to Galatians 3, "all Israel" is made up of OT saints who obtained approval through faith, and NT saints whose faith God credited as righteousness.
     
  8. psalms109:31

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    Van

    Hi van actually the key verse to 6:37

    John 6:
    45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

    John 12:
    49For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

    John 14:24
    Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    John 6:
    63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

    The Last scripture you gave is a good one

    Jesus been given all authority in heaven and Earth when Christ is lifted up and how has that effected this?

    John 6:44
    “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

    When we keep these in mind.

    John 14:
    6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    John 12:32
    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”



    1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[Psalm 8:6] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
     
    #8 psalms109:31, Apr 21, 2011
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  9. psalms109:31

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    Thank you, I enjoyed that
     
    #9 psalms109:31, Apr 21, 2011
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  10. psalms109:31

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    Exodus 12:48
    “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the LORD’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it.

    Romans 2:28
    A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

    Has not God always provided a way for non-Jew (non-elect) to enter into the covenant?

    Hebrews 11:
    39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
     
    #10 psalms109:31, Apr 21, 2011
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  11. psalms109:31

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    Isaiah 53:6

    Isaiah 53:6
    We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
     

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