Shepherds

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by thessalonian, Aug 12, 2003.

  1. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    I ran accross an interesting sequence of verses the other day. In Prov 3:5 we are told "trust not in your own understanding, but rely on the Lord". Wise words to be certain, though it seems to create a bit of a dilema for those who say that Psalm 119 tells us to not trust men but to figure things out for ourselves. But that is a different issue. Now in Jer 3:15 we are told that God will "send you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and UNDERSTANDING". Seems like one who figures out who these shepherds are and listens to them would be trusting in the Lord to me. Interestingly enough it doesn't say that I am going to give you a book to give you knowledge and understanding.

    Now the question is who are these shepherds. In John 21, Jesus says to Peter "shepherd my sheep". Sounds like an interesting candidate to me. I think it is a good bet that the other Apostles, including Paul would be a fullfillment of Jer 3:15. But the question is, are there continuing shepherds. Seems to me there are and that it would be important to find out who these shepherds are today. For we are told:



    Acts 20:28
    Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[ 20:28 Traditionally bishops] Be shepherds of the church of God,[ 20:28 Many manuscripts of the Lord] which he bought with his own blood.
    (Whole Chapter: Acts 20 In context: Acts 20:27-29)

    1 Peter 5:2
    Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers–not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
    (Whole Chapter: 1 Peter 5 In context: 1 Peter 5:1-3)

    Thoughts?
     
  2. MikeS

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    Oh yeah, time to pop up some popcorn and enjoy the fun! :D

    Thanks for the interesting question, Thess.
     
  3. Kathryn

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    This may be as popular as the Catechism Challenge thread. :D
     
  4. MikeS

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    How about I toss a little lighter fluid on the coals:

    Peter...Peter...Peter...

    (what can I say, I am just full of Catholic joy tonight! [​IMG] )
     
  5. John Gilmore

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    Yes, Peter did receive a divine call to be a shepherd and overseer (Acts 20:28). And, yes, today Christian men are still called by Christ to be shepherds and overseers of the Church (Eph. 4:10-12).
     
  6. Singer

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    Umm......I don't think you were supposed to say that, John Gilmore [​IMG]
     
  7. Singer

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    what can I say, I am just full of Catholic joy tonight!

    MikeS, you should try some Christian joy sometime...It's better [​IMG]

    Oops [​IMG]
     
  8. MikeS

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    Catholic joy is the cream of Christian joy! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Yummy!!!
     
  9. Yelsew

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    The Catholic thrust here is that only those elected to office in the Catholic Church are the "appointed shepherds" of Christ's church. That simply is not true, for Christ made the claim, "other sheep have I not of this fold". Therefore not all of the sheep that belong to Jesus are catholic and thus do not have shepherds that are "Catholic". Same Christ, Different flocks of sheep. Same source of eternal food, same source of living water just not of the same flock.
     
  10. Brother Adam

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  11. Kathryn

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    Yelsew:
    "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." John 10:16


    God Bless
     
  12. 3AngelsMom

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    Yeslew,

    You really set yourself up on that one! :eek:

    Certainly, Peter was a Shepherd of the Flock of Christ, and certainly there were others at the time of Christ.

    Which begs the question, what 'church' (since Peter supposedly has his own) are those other 'Shepherds' the head of?

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
  13. QuoVadis?

    QuoVadis?
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    Talk about kind of taking things out of context! John 10:16 Jesus was addressing the Pharisees, and the sheep who were not 'of this fold', were the Gentiles. It doesn't always work to take something that happened in 30 A.D. and have it apply to something 1500 years later. I don't think there were any Protestant shepherds until after the Protestant Reformation. Baaaaaaaad idea. ;) God bless you day.
     
  14. MEE

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    Talk about kind of taking things out of context! John 10:16 Jesus was addressing the Pharisees, and the sheep who were not 'of this fold', were the Gentiles.

    God bless you day. [/QB][/QUOTE]

    **Hmmm....took the words right out of my mouth. I thought everyone knew that Jesus was referring to the Gentiles.

    MEE [​IMG] &lt;-----Non-Catholic!
     
  15. Stephen III

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    Continuing the thought....

    Is it the Non-Catholic concensus that the RCC lost their shepherd somewhere along the way? If so when? And did God make any guarantees of protecting His Shepherds from teaching things contrary to Christ's Truth? How would we recognize the or a shepherd today? Are their varying degrees of shepherd-hood?

    Blessings
    Stephen
     
  16. Frank

    Frank
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    Thessalonian:
    The Bible teaches that congregations of the Lord's church are to be organized having elders and deacons. The new testament pattern for shepherds ( Bishops, Elders, Overseers) were to be plural in number at each congregation. The Bible says in Titus 1:5, ¶For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
    Those who serve in this role must be qualified to serve. The Bible says inI Tim. 3: 1- 9, ¶This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
    2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
    3  Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
    4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
    5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
    6  Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
    7  Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
    8  ¶Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
    9  Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

    Peter served as an elder. The Bible says in I Pet. 5:1,  ¶The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
    He obviously met the qualifications. He was married. He was the husband of one wife. I Tim. 3:2,3. The Bible says in I Cor. 9:5,Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
    He was obviously a teacher of the gospel of Christ. The Bible says in Acts 2:36- 38,Acts 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    37  ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    His Christian conversation was above reproach. I Tim. 3: 3-6. He was qualified to serve in the role of a shepherd.

    Today, men who may serve in the same capacity as Peter. However, just as Peter, they too must meet the divine qualifications to do so.

    Our congregation has three men who serve her in this role.
     
  17. Kathryn

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    Do the non-Catholics here consider themselves spiritual sheep with their pastor, deacon, and elder, as their Shepherd here on earth?

    How does the Pastor, deacon, and elder, "feed my sheep", "feed my lambs", "feed my sheep" in the sense that Jesus said it to Peter? Any thoughts?

    God Bless
     
  18. John Gilmore

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    Yes, those who hold the Office of the Holy Ministry are our earthly shepherds.

    Christ is restoring Peter to the Office of Shepherd. He had forfeited his office when he had deserted and denied his Lord.
     
  19. MikeS

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    Yes, those who hold the Office of the Holy Ministry are our earthly shepherds.</font>[/QUOTE]How does one gain the Office of the Holy Ministry?
     
  20. Frank

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    Kathryn:
    Shepherds are to lead by example. This is the manner in which Peter led. The Bible says in 1 Peter 5:2,3  Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
    3  Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
    The leading is to be done by example and in continuance of submitting to the authority of the new testament of Jesus Christ. The Bible says in Matthew 28:18- 20,  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
    In other words, the flock follows the shepherd as he follows the expressed authority of Christ. If the shepherd fails to follow the will of God, the flock should cease to follow him. The apostle Paul made it clear in Phil. 3:16,17 by saying,  Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
    17  ¶Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. In 1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul writes,  ¶Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

    [ August 12, 2003, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]
     

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