Should Christians Support Isreal?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jedi Knight, May 27, 2009.

  1. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight
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    For years I have been around those who say support Israel because they were Gods chosen people. I have seen others not happy we support them because as a whole Jews out right reject Jesus as Messiah and we seem to wink at this. In Judaism, the Talmud is the supreme scripture, not the Old Testament and says horrific things about Christ. Jesus didn't have anything nice to say to his rejectors...calling their Father's the Devil. Paul seems to tone it it down alot in Romans.....so what have you learned about this issue if we should support them"for scripture sake" or just like a neighbor?
     
  2. Mexdeaf

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    I'm sure I'll get slammed for this but- Israel is still the apple of God's eye. Yes we should support Israel, but not all of her policies and practices.
     
  3. preachinjesus

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    over-realized eschatology is partly to blame for the over emphasis on supporting Israel.

    Israel is not the "apple of God's eye" rather the Church is the "apple of God's eye." Israel isn't the Church.

    I'm not suggesting nor endorsing any kind of anti-Semtic tendencies, but I do think we have gone too far as a nation in our supporting Israel. The establishment or disestablishment of a Jewish state will neither delay or expedite the eschaton. One of the driving motivations for many in the later part of last century was to do just that.

    I don't have a problem with Israel. I think they're a fine nation, but also believe we (nationally) need to recognize the dynamic tension that abounds in the Middle East. Israel isn't innocent in all the transgressions there...but neither or the Palestinians or Syrians, etc.
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

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    This modern Israel is not the Israel of the bible. Its a secular government that does terrible things. It does good things as well. So I don't confuse the bible with Modern Israel. I believe there is symbolism in the bible that supports Christianity (christians) as being the true inheritors of the promises made to the Patriarchs. There is a theme of the second son being chosen by God and not the first. For instance. Cain rebelled Abel was approved. Ishmeal wasn't what God wanted but Isaac. Jacob was chosen not Esau ( I like to call Esau big Red or Edom). And Again look act Jacobs blessing on the sons of Joseph he crosses hands giving the younger son the blessing.That being said they are the only nation in the Middle east that holds to the superior values of the west. I see the Jews being the Older Child that like Esau sold out their inheretance. And the fulfillment of all Scripture is through Jesus and promises made to his followers. The Jews who become christian are fulfilling Gods plan those who do not are no longer inheretors. As Jesus parable speaks of with regard to the original invited guest chose not to come but the invetations went to everyone else. That being said Israel is the only Country in the Middle East that holds to western values and have a government that is by their people. They are truely on the front lines of this modern war against the Islamic eastern principles that are harsh and demene human life. So I support the current nation of Israel as its values are closer to ours.
     
  5. annsni

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    Well, I see the countries that don't support Israel and I certainly don't want to be on their side.

    Yes, I think that we are to support Israel.
     
  6. Jeep Dragon

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    Everyone has a responsibility by God to discern right from wrong. Sometimes that requires research into issues, but a lot of us would rather have simple concrete "yes" or "no" answers so that we do not have to think.

    If a nation attacks Israel because they just want something from them like land or resources, then it is wrong because it is stealing. If a nation attacks Israel because Israel decided to attack them for selfish reasons, we need to research the issues before blindly committing loyalty.

    As a side note, it is wise for us to ask Israel if they want our support before we enforce it on them. Sometimes Israel may not want our help and we give it to them anyways. Realize the religious tensions between Israel and their neighbors. If any nation finds that a world superpower is defending their enemies over an issue, it must scare them to death because they fear being wiped off the face of the earth. That fear will drive that nation to more drastic measures.

    We need to think of things like this. Suppose we were living in the Florida Keys and having a battle with Cuba... Suppose Cuba had China and Russia join them in the battle against the Florida Keys... In total fear the Florida Keys will seek help to even the odds and turn the battle into a raging war.
     
  7. blackbird

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    As a nation---the United States government has pledged to support Israel both monatarily and militarily-----much along the same lines as Great Britian pledged its support to Poland prior to the outbreak of World War II

    As a Christian-------I find nowhere in Scripture where Christians are to pledge alligience to the state of Israel------I believe the Apostle Paul eluded to the truth when Scripture says that "not all Israel is Israel"-------IOW----just because you live in Israel-----does not mean you are a Son of Abraham

    I see no difference in supporting Israel as I do in the US supporting Tiawan or any other nation we have treatyied with
     
  8. saturneptune

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    I am not a big fan of some of Israel's policies, but like Ann said, when one looks at Israel's enemies, not just enemies, but states that are brimming with hate because the state exists, then yes, I would put my lot with Israel. What I am not in favor of is spending US tax dollars to achieve a goal that will never be reached, true peace in that part of the world. All of the money in the world cannot take away pure hate, or create a live and let live mindset.

    Another reason for supporting Israel is it is one of the few countries in the world that are truly allies (maybe Australia, New Zeeland, and Britain). The reasons posted here are purely secular reasons, and as posted above, I can see no Biblical reason to render such support.
     
  9. Jedi Knight

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    This is what I was getting at...I here some well meaning believers quote: Genesis 12:3 I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. To mean.....support Israel no matter what because of THIS promise.
     
    #9 Jedi Knight, May 30, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2009
  10. Mexdeaf

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    The church is not the "apple of God's eye". It IS the body of Christ.

    While individual Jews may be members of Christ's body, the redemption of God's chosen nation is yet future. I do not see anywhere in the Bible where God has canceled the Abrahamic covenant.

    Of course we could go around and around about this. Some will. I won't.
     
  11. Woodseyowl

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    Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    As always we should pray for the peace of Israel. I have always believed our country has been blessed because we have supported Israel.
     
  12. menageriekeeper

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    I have to agree with Mexdeaf on this one. There are promises to the physical/secular nation of Isreal that have yet to be fulfilled. There are are other promises to the spirirtual nation Isreal that were fulfilled in Christ or are being fulfilled by the church.

    It can be difficult to sort out these differences so folk tend to paint them with the same brush. I'd rather err on the side of favoring the nation of Isreal with our political power, if only for the reason that God chose that nation first to represent His power on earth. My personal belief is that He ain't done with Isreal yet.
     
  13. OldRegular

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    You are absolutely 100% correct [and you can't get any better than that]: Israel is not the "apple of God's eye" rather the Church is the "apple of God's eye." Israel isn't the Church.

    The only reason that I think the United States as a nation should support Israel is that they are the only democracy in the Middle east. Make no mistake about it though, Israel will do whatever they think is best for Israel. But any nation should do what is best for themselves.

    If individual Christians choose to support Israel that is fine but don't delude yourself into thinking you are going to make any brownie points with GOD. cause you ain't!
     
  14. just-want-peace

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    Just one question! If Israel is not in the plans of God as His chosen, why/how did a people that have been homeless for 2k years +/-, manage to keep themselves from total assimilation in other cultures, maintain for those 2K years a passion for "the homeland", and reemerge as an independent unique cultural entity of a nation?

    If the hand of God is not the driving force here, then perhaps evolution IS true!!!

    I'll continue to believe that God still plans to fulfill His covenants to the patriarchs. If you choose to believe that He has reneged, then take it up with Him!
     
  15. KenH

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    As an American, I think that we should support the present nation state of Israel in those areas where Israel supports the United States. The tail(Israel) should not wag the dog(U.S.).
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/chosen.html

    After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, the nation of Israel, after the flesh, was scattered throughout the earth, and lost all tribal relations. This scattering was made immutable due to the fact that all tribal genealogical records were destroyed with the Temple in A.D. 70. The simple fact is that there is no existing Jewish race. Not only the Bible confirms this (as already revealed), but the writings of worldly authorities, including Jewish resources as well. Consider the following quotations:
    The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973): "The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropocentric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics" (vol. 12, page 1054).
    Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971): "It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .
    "Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many can't be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).
    Encyclopedia Americana (1986): "Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).
    Collier's Encyclopedia (1977): "A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they live" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).
    Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia (1970): "In 1970 the Israeli Knesset adopted legislation defining a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert" (vol. 14, p. 214).
    H.G. Wells: "There can be little doubt that the scattered Phoenicians in Spain and Africa and throughout the Mediterranean, speaking as they did a language closely akin to Hebrew and being deprived of their authentic political rights, became proselytes to Judaism. For phases of vigorous proselytism alternated with phases of exclusive jealousy in Jewish history. On one occasion the Idumeans, being conquered, were all forcibly made Jews. There were Arab tribes who were Jews in the time of Muhammad, and a Turkish people who were mainly Jews in South Russia in the ninth century. Judaism is indeed the reconstructed political ideal of many shattered peoples - mainly Semitic.... The main part of Jewry never was in Judea and had never come out of Judea" (The Outline of History, p. 505).
    John Bray: "Many Christians do not know that the vast majority of so-called Jews in the world today are the Ashkenazim Jews, while the remainder of them are the Sephardim Jews. The Ashkenazim Jews have as their background not the nation of Israel but a country called Khazaria, which country at one time was the largest country in Europe. The settlers of Khazaria were Turks and Huns. In A.D. 740 King Bulan of Khazaria decided to adopt the Judaistic religion for his country. A number of Jews were already living there. So he converted to Judaism, along with all his officials, and whole nation ended up being known as a nation of Jews. In 970, Russia came in and dominated the situation, and the Khazars were scattered, many of them going down into Poland and Lithuania. Where at the dawn of our modern civilization the largest concentration of Jews were found. Today, the largest percentage of so-called Jews in the world have as their background this group of people" (This information is fully documented in detail in John Bray's book, Israel in Bible Prophecy).


    Well, thats up to you and God.

    Or perhaps, many of us believe God actually kept His promises. Why is it dispies never quote this verse when speaking of modern Israel:

    Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

    Read Matthew 23 sometime.
     
  17. preachinjesus

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    It is Bride of Christ. Jesus Christ is a member of the Trinity. The Church isn't Israel. The Church is the intended of the Trinity. We are the "apple of God's eye."

    Are you suggesting that Jews who deny Christ throughout their lives will, ultimately, be redeemed at the end of the age?

     
  18. OldRegular

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    Thanks for the info grasshopper!
     
  19. menageriekeeper

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    Grasshopper, I'm a bit confused as to your point.

    The Jewish people were never presented as being a seperate "race" of people in using the scientific meaning of the word.

    God called Abram out of his culture and his religion. God didn't change his physical characteristics.

    So the notion that there is no race of Jews, therefore there is no longer a nation of Isreal is a strawman. There never was a race of Jews only a religion/culture of people who identified themselves as Jewish.

    The decendents of that religion/culture exists today and God hasn't said he was done with them. On the contrary, He said He would scatter them for their disobedience, but He never withdrew the promises made beforehand. Nor have all those promises been fulfilled. (for example the one about fully occupying the Promised Land)
     
  20. Jim1999

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    Modern day Israel is a modern state of varied Jews, period. It is no more special than is any other country.

    If Israel is doing the right thing, then suport her. If she is doing ill, then say so.

    The Israel of scripture has changed and fulfilled in the church of Jesus Christ. There is no more Israel. All the kingdom promises will be fulfilled in the churches of Christ and in the Kingdom of God, with Jesus enthroned at the right hand of the Father.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     

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