Should English Translations Have Gone For "Utterance"...?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by TCGreek, Nov 24, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. At Eph 6:17, we are told that the sword of the Spirit is the word of God. Behind word is not the usual logos but rhema.

    2. Should English translations have gone for "utterance" or "saying" instead of "word" here?

    3. The Young's Literal Translation has: "and the helmet of the salvation receive, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the saying of God."

    4. Why did Paul use rhema instead of logos?
     
  2. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not much of a linguist (ok, not at all) but I have seen people wave their Bible and say this is their sword. I don’t believe is talking about the Word as in a “Bible”, he is talking about the Word you have in your heart. Just like Jesus’ example with satan in the wilderness we are to be ready, not with book in hand but with Word in heart. As my Dad would say, "hittin satan with a book won't do him no good. If it were that easy, etc..."
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,410
    Likes Received:
    328
    I can't go deep here , but isn't Hebrews 4:12 related to Ephesians 6:17 ? The Word of God is likened to a sword in the Hebrews passage . It is a most necessary part of our spiritual armaments . From what I have read in the past ( Gordon Clark in particular ) logos could be rendered in a myraid of ways , but the word "word" is generally the accepted way of expressing the idea in English .
     
  4. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to Strongs, the root to rhema goes to hreh'-o which translates to - is used; to flow (“run”, as water) :- flow


    That makes the verse, ..."which is the flowing of God"

    Outpouring???
     
  5. Palatka51

    Palatka51
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,724
    Likes Received:
    0
    17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
    Just as with the use of a sword you would reach out with it to preform its business, so too is the context of the word "word" as it relates to the offensive weapon of a soldier. God's spoken word is that weapon that reaches out just as a soldier would use a sword. Hence it is a great study to understand each meaning of each word. Isn't it great how the English can expand our studies?
     
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, but in Hebrews 4 we have logos and not rhema, so we still need an explanation for why Paul used rhema at Eph 6 and not logos.
     
  7. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is there an overlapping with logos and rhema then?
     
  8. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,974
    Likes Received:
    129
    For he whom God has sent utters [remata] the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.
    John 3:34 ESV

    Logos” and “rema” seem to be interchangeable.

    I’d be curious to see if the Greek word “rema” was used more frequently in the presence of a use of power or might.

    but the word [rema] of the Lord remains forever.”
    And this word [rema] is the good news that was preached to you.

    1 Peter 1:25 ESV

    He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word [remati] of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
    Hebrews 1:3 ESV

    …you heard the word [logon] of truth, the gospel of your salvation,
    Ephesians 1:13 ESV

    Let no corrupting talk [logon] come out of your mouths
    Ephesians 4:29 ESV

    Let no one deceive you with empty words, [logois]
    Ephesians 5:6 ESV

    and also for me, that words [logos] may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel,
    Ephesians 6:19 ESV

    and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words [rematoon ] made the hearers beg that no further messages [logon] be spoken to them.
    Hebrews 12:19 ESV

    Rob
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yep, they are almost interchangable.

    I once had a sermon that showed that:

    1. logos = the Living Word of God - Messiah Yeshua
    2. rhema = the Written Word of God - The Holy Bible

    But that isn't necessarily true.

    Here are four verses containing both
    RHEMA & LOGOS:

    Mat 12:36 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    But I say vnto you, that of euery idle word (RHEMA)
    that men shall speake, they shall giue account (LOGOS)
    thereof at the day of iudgement.

    Joh 12:48 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition)::
    He that refuseth me,
    and receiueth not my wordes (RHEMA),
    hath one that iudgeth him:
    the worde (LOGOS) that I haue spoken,
    it shall iudge him in the last day.

    Act 10:44 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    While Peter yet spake these wordes (RHEMA),
    the holy Ghost fell on al them
    which heard the word (LOGOS).

    This seems to distinguish between the
    words said (RHEMA) and the words
    heard (LOGOS)???

    Heb 12:19 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Neither vnto the sounde of a trumpet,
    and the voyce of wordes (RHEMA),
    which they that heard it, excused themselues,
    that the word (LOGOS) should not be spoken
    to them any more,

    The KJV1769 Edition, New Testament uses LOGOS
    330 times in 316 verses -- 35 different English terms and
    no-translaltion-specified are used.
    The KJV1769 Edition, New Testament uses RHEMA
    70 times in 67 verses -- 6 different English terms and
    no-translaltion-specified are used.
     
  10. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2007
    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    0
    My suggestion is what follows as the reason for using rhema.
    The NIV reads:
    Paul follows the description of the sword of the Spirit as "the word of God" with the command to pray in the Spirit. The context appears to favor that of the spoken word which is the root of rhema.
     
    #10 Alex Quackenbush, Nov 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2007

Share This Page

Loading...