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Should God have compassion?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by BobRyan, Sep 5, 2005.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Calvinists -- come one come all!

    What is the answer to God's question regarding the wicked depraved city of Nineveh?

    I have argued that Calvinism's soteriology REQUIRES a callous and heartless disregard for the finally lost.

    Nineveh is ultimately destroyed - but not in the incident with Jonah.

    So what is the deal Calvinists - what is the answer to God's question for Calvinism?

    And IN THE TEXT what was the implied answer that God was forcing on Jonah?

    SHOULD God have to have mercy on such a city? SHOULD He?

    Hint: What is GOD's argument IN THE TEXT for why HE SHOULD have mercy on them?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Sep 5, 2005
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    (Note - this thread is actually the idea of my daughter who is a Junior at NC State - in the engineering program.)

    Since her opening idea seems to be a bit difficult for Calvinists.

    Here is the follow-on question she posed.

    What should be the Calvnist response when God says...

    Was Moses a "good Calvinist" or a bad one?

    (And then there is Abraham).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Sep 5, 2005
  3. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Miss Bob pleased to meet you. :cool:

    ..."He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:18. :cool:

    I have seen some have argued for the blindingly obvious: I have argued that Calvinism's soteriology REQUIRES a callous and heartless disregard for the finally lost. While I'll not agree completely with the way it is worded I would agree with the sentiment. :cool: Love never behaves inappropriately. Sticking people in Hell is inappropriate to love.

    The argument in the text does not mention mercy but compassion. :cool: And that would be: ..."I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
    But it is interesting in itself that you say it is God that does the saving. You lose.

    ..."He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:18.

    Your 'mercy' and your 'should' are in conflict.

    ..."He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:18.

    He is a Calvinist but you won't find a good Calvinist. I'm sure you will agree. :cool: You will only find good Arminians. :cool:

    There is indeed.

    john.
     
    #3 johnp., Sep 5, 2005
  4. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Hi Bob and Bob's daughter,

    Thats easy to answer. Yes God should have mercy because He chooses to do so. The whole point of the book of Jonah is to show that God is sovereign in His choice of those whom He grants mercy too.

    Jonah thought that only Israel was deserving of God's mercy since He choose them to be His nation. But shows us that He can choose whomever He wishes to choose including Ninevah if He so desires wether Jonah likes it or not.

    He created them He has the choice to save to them if He so pleases. Whats so hard about that?
     
    #4 4His_glory, Sep 5, 2005
  5. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Dear Bob,

    I thought Arminians didn't change scripture to suit their beliefs. I guess I misread that other post in that other thread.

    Your friend,

    whatever
     
    #5 whatever, Sep 5, 2005
  6. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Bob sends his regards and asks for your patience while he snippets some ducks.

    Thank you.

    john. :cool:
     
    #6 johnp., Sep 5, 2005
  7. HanSola2000

    HanSola2000 Guest

    Great exegesis by Calvinists! Let me answer for them. God himself declares HE SHOULD have compassion on the wicked, who are so far gone they don't know right from wrong! God believes He is morally obligated to be compassion to the lost---all of them in Ninevah. Nothing about them being secretly elected prior to the forming of the world, but simply the fact Arminians have always known---God's heart is for all to be saved-1Tim 2:4. Period.
     
    #7 HanSola2000, Sep 5, 2005
  8. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello HanSola2000 nice to meet you. :cool:

    Since this is true for you could you tell me why He doesn't if He is please?

    john.
     
    #8 johnp., Sep 5, 2005
  9. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Why was God not obligated "to be compassion to the lost" a few generations later when he completely wiped the city out?
     
    #9 whatever, Sep 5, 2005
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. What were the reasons GOD gave for arguing His point that He "should" have mercy on such a wicked city -- IN the text of Jonah 4?

    #2. WHO did God ask to evaluate that argument for WHY He SHOULD have mercy -- accoring to the TEXT of Jonah 4?

    #3. Did God make a mistake in pointing to the "details" that HE lists as REASONS that He SHOULD have mercy?

    The whole point of the book of Jonah is to show that God is sovereign in His choice of those whom He grants mercy too.

    How would the text of Jonah 4 have to be rewritten so that the argument it makes is "I SHOULD have mercy any time I feel like it -- shouldn't I?".

    Why does the text use the objective facts and attributes of Nineveh instead of pointing to the capricious whim of God as the reason for the "SHOULD"??

    WHy doesn't the text make the more Calvinist point that "God may choose mercy as it suits Him INCLUDING having mercy on Ninevey IF He so DESIRES"

    In fact here is the perfect argument that God SHOULD have used to highlight Calvinism INSTEAD of Arminianism "I created them I have the choice to save to them if I so pleases. Whats so hard about that Jonah? [/QUOTE]

    Wouldn't that have been great?!! For Calvinism?!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Sep 5, 2005
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Welcome HanSola!

    That is correct based on the details GOD GIVES in the text of Jonah 4.

    But how can a Calvinist carefully note EACH OF THOSE details IN THE TEXT and still be Calvinist?

    What argument would they use?

    OR would they simply use the "tactic" of glossing over the details AS IF the text said what they NEEDED it to say. Namely "ANd then God SELECTED THEM for Mercy. When Jonah complained God said -- I created them Jonah! I can have mercy on anyone I selectively pick out right Jonah? So once I happen to SELECT this particular town then SHOULDN't I have mercy on them after selecting them for mercy?".

    That way the Arminian text could be changed and fitted to Calvinism!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Sep 5, 2005
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Did the OP misquote scripture??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Sep 5, 2005
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Was Moses a "good Calvinist" or a bad one?

    (And then there is Abraham).

    </font>[/QUOTE]Surely JohnP can get 100% behind God's sovereign statement in THIS post if not in the OP eh?

    So does that make Moses a "bad Calvinist"??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Sep 5, 2005
  14. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Miss Bob.

    We should all intercede for the others in the Church and if we do God has moved us to it 100%.

    There is no such thing as a good Calvinist ask an Arminian. :cool:

    john. :cool:
     
    #14 johnp., Sep 5, 2005
  15. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Yes, it did.

    That part is OK.

    Oops - we left out a word.

    Should God not have compassion, Jonah? Would compassion be wrong? Of course not - but compassion is not obligated.

    Oh, what a mess we make when we change scripture.
     
    #15 whatever, Sep 5, 2005
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by BobRyan:
    Did the OP misquote scripture??

    In Christ,

    Bob
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is that a blind accuasation or do you have another version of the NASB to show us?

    Or is this another case of Calvinists needing to change the text??

    Have you been able to bring yourself to comment on the DETAILS of God's argument in that quote?

    Why does He mention those DETAILS about the ignorance of the wicked and the animals as if they "ARE REASONS" why He "SHOULD" do someting like "have mercy"??

    Does Calivnism allow the devotee to consider those "details"??

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
    #16 BobRyan, Sep 5, 2005
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:Bob asks a question
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    SHOULD God have to have mercy on such a city? SHOULD He?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Left out of my question? Did I not QUOTE ME right?


    Is this what Jonah was supposed to say to God?

    Was Jonah being a "bad Calvinist" to "let God" use those "bad reasons" as reasons why "HE SHOULD" have mercy??

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Sep 5, 2005
  18. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    SHOULD" and mercy do not belong together. :cool:

    john.
     
    #18 johnp., Sep 5, 2005
  19. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Hi HonSola,

    Tell me then if God's heart is for all to be saved then why doesn't He save everyone?
     
    #19 4His_glory, Sep 5, 2005
  20. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Dear Bob,

    I will try to make this as simple as I can. The Bible says "Should I not have compassion ...?" You changed it to "Should God have compassion ...?" You left out the word "not". Leaving that word out changes the meaning of the question.

    Your friend,

    whatever
     
    #20 whatever, Sep 5, 2005
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