Should we use harsh biblical language?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gekko, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. gekko

    gekko
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    ok ok. the topic title some of you may argue about.
    ---

    im asking - should we use words such as "whore" and "sodomite" (is sodomite in the scriptures?) in our speech?
     
  2. paulsfocus

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    The Bible uses the word whore, why then would it be wrong for us to use it?
    The word sodomite shows up in the Bible once, In Deut.23:17.

    If these words are good enough for God, why should we be so ashamed to use them?
    Also, why call someone that IS a sodomite gay? Websters 1828:
    Gay-
    1. Merry; airy; jovial; sportive; frolicksome. It denotes more life and animation than cheerful.
    Belinda smiled, and all the world was gay.
    2. Fine; showy; as a gay dress.
    3. Inflamed or merry with liquor; intoxicated; a vulgar use of the word in America.
    The closest is the 3rd but still not exactly what I would consider a sodomite.
    Would the reason be 'These words are offensive'.
    I would agree those are offensive terms but the Bible say's,
    [SIZE=-1]1Cr 1:18, For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.[/SIZE]
     
  3. Scarlett O.

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    Don't confuse "words" with the "the Word". The authors of the bible never said whore, nor sodomite, nor piss. They didn't speak English.

    The meaning was the same, but it was another language. God's Word is always perfect and true, but translated words of God's Word can take on new connotations as time passes by.

    In 1 Samuel 25, King David gets mad at Nabal for insulting him. David makes a vow that he will "kill everything that pisseth against a wall". What he means is that he will kill every male person and animal. Thank goodness Abigail stopped him.

    In King James English that word was not necessarily offensive. But today it is.

    Can you imagine if someone on the Baptist Board in making a reference to the men who post here as those who "piss against a wall"? It would be deleted.

    That story of David is important because God deemed it to be important. God even deemed the display of David's anger to be a lesson to us all. But the Old English phrase carries a negative meaning today. The "word" is offensive, but the "Word" is perfect.

    In 2 Kings 18:27, Rabshakeh, the messenger of the King of Assyria delivers a message to God's people. He says that they will all be "eating their own dung and drinking their own piss" it they don't give in to the King of Assyria.

    In this context, the message was INTENDED to be offensive.

    As for the preaching of the cross being offensive to those that are hell-bound, that's true.

    But that passage is talking about the message of the gospel, not archaic and individual words in a translation from the original text.

    It's talking about the Word, not the words.
     
  4. Pete Richert

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    [qoute]But that passage is talking about the message of the gospel, not archaic and individual words in a translation from the original text.[qoute]

    Very well said.
     
  5. IIJohn7

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    I agree with Scarlett O. My pastor regularly uses the word "donkey" in place of "a$$". At first I was confused about that, but then I realized, as Mrs. O said, that we used a different word to mean the same thing and the Old English word now meant something offensive.
     
  6. genesis12

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    Frankly, Scarlett, I give a darn. Well said, m'Lady.
     
  7. gekko

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    sounds good.

    what if those "words" were not used and were not intended to be offensive - but used in love to describe examples of sin? if spoken in Love?

    is it good to water down different words?
     
  8. Joseph M. Smith

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    This is not a direct answer to the question, but it brings to mind something I learned only this past weekend, at my mother-in-law's memorial service. Her husband, who died 15 years ago, was a professor at Southern Baptist Seminary, but continued to teach and preach after retirement. His very last sermon was at the church of which he was a member, and, according to another old faculty member who told me the story, used the text about "whoremongers ...etc" not inheriting the Kingdom. He was audibly booed and hissed at by some in the congregation, and he responded to them that worship was a time to hear the word of the Lord, and not to harass the preacher.

    Less than a month later he was dead, and, I am told, some of the folks in that church who had objected to his use of that text phoned my mother-in-law repeatedly to suggest that it was a good thing he had died. So unkind!

    If we cannot obey the rule of "speaking the truth in love" we need to remain silent.
     
  9. blackbird

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    I can kinda sorta relate a story here---has to do with the subject---some time ago I was preaching through the 10 commands and came to the command to keep the Sabbath Day a HOLY Day---

    Anyway---to make a long story short---I preach from the KJV(though I ain't a KJVO preacher)---and the KJV says that the Israelites were to rest their animals as well as themselves on the HOLY day---and I made the comment that went something like

    "God is commanding us to rest our animals---give them a day off--let them rest---we are to rest our asses"

    Well---that one phrase just shut the whole sermon down

    I suppose that "some" folks thought I meant it one way---when I really meant it in a "beastly" way---but as Adolf Hitler said of the German people--German people are so stupid--they'd believe anything I tell them!---Well---American people are just as stupid!!!
     
  10. DHK

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    The KJV translators often used stronger phrases in the English to convey what was actually being said in the Greek. Meaning is lost in translation. A good example is in Romans 6:2.

    Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    God forbid! That is a strong expression. But neither "God" nor "forbid" are in the Greek. More accurately translated the phrase would be "May it not be." But that doesn't accurately convey what the Greek expression would have us to read. Thus the translators used "God forbid," an equivalent translation expressing a stronger thought such as the Greek intended it to be.
    In this case we have a more modern expression accurately expressing the thought intended instead of the literal translation which would be awkward in its translation.
    DHK
     
  11. paulsfocus

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    I know this isn't in the mv/t forum but the point must be brought up.
    Ya'll don't believe your Bible.
    You think your smarter than God or even the translators of the King James.
    You always go to the greek when God said in psalm 12 6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. KJVcrosswalk.com
    Also in 2Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God...(emphasis mine)
    Why can't ya'll just believe God CAN do what he said, w/o relying on what you think.

    I'm not arguing your points about 1Cor.1:18, that might be a streatch on my part. But I still believe that it apply's. My opinion take it or leave it. No quarel(sp?) there.
     
  12. av1611jim

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    I can answer the OP in a word....YES!
    Qualifier...(for the squeamish amongst us)
    Never...NEVER take those harsh words out of context just to make a point. God uses those words, and who are we to edit or censure God?
    Methinks the "P C" craze which has gripped this country for the last few decades has gotten its tentacles around the throats of most people in the church and now we are more concerned with "talking nince" than we are with TRUTH.
    I don't thinks the "P C" crowd would have liked our Saviour's speach and choice of words either..."Joh 8:44
    Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
    Call somebody a devil and a liar on this board and see what happens!!!!ROFLOL
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    One couple I know of left and went to another church because I used the word "fornication" in a message. To be fair, they felt that I was wrong to use that word and preach on that subject when there were kids around - their kids.
    Excuse me, but that word appears 32 times in the KJV Bible which is what we use in church, and which is what they (husband and wife) individually use, and which is basically what their kids read and will grow up on.
    So for the life of me, I coulnd't figure out what to do about the word !
     
  14. Scarlett O.

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    I'm not going to argue with the KJO people here.

    I do want to ask a question however. Here is 2 Kings 18:27 in the King James.

    "But Rabshakeh said unto them, 'Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung and drink their own piss with you?'"

    Here it is again in the NIV.

    "But the commander replied, 'Was it only to your master and you that my master sent to me to say these things, and not to the men sitting on the wall - who, like you, will have to eat their own filth and drink their own urine?'"

    Here's my question. What's wrong changing the word "piss" to to the word "urine"?
     
  15. rbell

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    I bet your arm hurts...holding up such a broad brush and all...
    Besides...I hear a some people that quote God's word...but have no love in their heart. We must speak the truth...in love. Leaving out either component falls short of the goal.

    Didn't Paul remind us that it doesn't matter what we say...if we say it without love, we are just making noise (1 Cor. 13).

    I believe in being uncompromising toward sin. But my job is to communicate God's truth to folks. Sometimes, I have to resort to words that are newer than 1611 (or 1769, take your pick). I can do that without compromising God's truth.

    Paulsfocus...just some unsolicited advice. Accusing folks of "not believing the Bible" shouldn't be done offhand. That's a serious charge, and I tend to resent it pretty quickly if it's thrown my way...because it's an unjustified accusation.
     
  16. gekko

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    it waters down the tone of the message you were trying to get across.
    ---

    if you're driving - its kind of hard to have road rage if you're using language like:

    "HEY YOU! GET OUT OF MY WAY!"
    when compared to:
    "HEY YOU! GET THE F*** OUT OF MY WAY YOU B****!"

    (excuse my bleeped out language - only shown for experimental purposes)
    ---

    in the context of the verse you used - that is not harsh at all. the action of drinking piss is harsh. but the word "piss" is not harsh at all.

    i dont find it harsh now even. i'll go piss in the woods if there aint an outhouse around.

    yes there are other words i can use. but if im not using it to swear - what's wrong with it?

    the word "fag" when used today - even the meaning of that has changed - it used to mean something totally different. (can't remember what though)

    its in how we use the words - not the words themselves.
    (now its your turn to bring up the typical swear words and argue about that... )

    :)
     
  17. gekko

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    amen for that.
     
  18. rbell

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    it all comes down to motives.

    Remember Jesus' many criticisms of pharisees, even in the Sermon on the Mount? They were so meticulous...so careful to appear to do everything just right...but their hearts were far from God.

    If we're using harsh language to get a rise out of someone, or because we've let our anger get the best of us, or because we lack self-control...we're in the wrong. If we avoid using harsh language simply because we're scared to speak the truth...we're in the wrong. If we're using harsh language because we hate a group (see Fred Phelps and the "God hates $#!!" signs)...we're in the wrong.

    We should ask God to make our hearts clean...then our mouths will follow.
     
  19. pinoybaptist

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    how about dung rhymes with hung, and piss with peace, but filth and urine ?:tongue3: by the way, I am KJVP, not O. peace ! :flower:
     
  20. HankD

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    Well, here is a good reason NOT to do so:

    1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

    The 17th century was a different time with a different cultural value system. These words were common and acceptable in a "church" setting.​

    Why not just avoid the offence? ​

    So you know better, you know there is no intrinsic evil in a word.
    But others do have a problem.​

    Obviously we wont be able to please everyone as Brother Pinoy has shown.

    Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.​


    HankD​
     
    #20 HankD, Jul 29, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2006

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