Signs, Wonders, Visions, Tongues etc...

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Kiffin, Feb 25, 2002.

  1. Kiffin

    Kiffin
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    How many of you believe that God is working Signs, Wonders, Visions, Tongues and Supernatural Healings and other Miracles today?
     
  2. javalady

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    Reading from Hebrews 1:1-3 I see this very important text:
    "God, who at various times and in different manners spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed Heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the world of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high..."
    By the time Hebrews was written, miraculous speaking by the prophets was not the main way God was speaking any more. There wasn't a need to verify that the Messiah had come, and His apostles were truly of God. It was established, and the preaching of the Word of God is now the power of God unto salvation (see Rom. 1:16). God used the miraculous gifts as interim while His Word was being written. But it was a temporary thing, for His Word, and the preaching of it are the regular means of bringing Christ to the nations.
    Now we have no need of miraculous proofs. Of course God provides providential answers to prayer, but He doesn't use them as giving His Word, in the same way a prophet gave the Word of the Lord. We have Christ--His Spirit within and the written Word of God!
    The Bible is the ever-fresh, ever-new, ever-applicable Word from God!
    This comes from one who was highly involved in the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement for over 20 years, and many of my relatives are still C/P. All the difference in the world is made for those who believe God in and through His Word, versus those who rely on visions, tongues, and "prophecies" by modern "apostles" and "prophets".
    I highly recommend John MacArthur's book: Charismatic Chaos.
    PreacherDave & I have also written a book (small) you are welcome to, entitled "Power in the Christian Life." Email or private message me if you'd like a (free) copy.
    "How firm a foundation,
    ye saints of the Lord
    is laid for your faith
    in His excellent Word!
    What more can He say
    than to you He hath said,
    to you who for refuge to Jesus has fled?"
     
  3. Overdose

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    I dont understand the thinking behind those few votes, I mean it should be a landslide. God is still doing miracles today like he did in the apostles day. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
    Peace,
    OD
     
  4. Don

    Don
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    If you don't understand the thinking behind the answers, then you didn't read javalady's post.
     
  5. Nat'l Baptist Guy

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    I agree with Javalady to an extent. I agree to the point of speaking in tongues. I do agree that it was interim because the complete manifestation of the Word had not been revealed. I do believe that God is still in the miricle business. Whenever God does something that no other man can do, it is a miricle because we couldn't do it. Was it of such caliber as feeding 5,000 with two fish and five loaves of bread? No, but it is still a miricle. I do believe that God is showing signs to people, because the nature of people is "seeing to believe". That is not necessary for some, however, I do believe that the practice is still being done.

    Mark
    15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    19: So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
    20: And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

    So many people are following after signs and wonders and not letting signs and wonders follow them. Just because of the simple fact that I am a child of God and I have been regenerated means that I have the authority to lay hands the sick and pray for their illness. Do I have to stand in front of 15,000 people and speak ing tongues and throw them on the floor? NO. Do I have to runa round and jump up and down? NO. I simply act according to the Word.
     
  6. Overdose

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    That's the problem, I did read it. Why limit GOD?
    Peace,
    OD
     
  7. Kiffin

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    I also read the post but the Cessationist argument always seems to be reading between the lines. God was certaintly still speaking by visions when Hebrews was written since Scripture itself involves Divine Revelation and Revelation itself was a series of visions John divinely received and was written years after Hebrews and the Church Fathers speak of miracles occuring years later.
     
  8. JAMES2

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    Javalady:
    Thanks for another great post. Can God do a miracle today? Of course, He's God. Do individual Christians have "visions, words of prophecy, etc"? No, of course not. The Bible RECORDS the people that had visions, prophesy's, dreams, etc. Those were recorded, and put in the bible for us to understand. If it isn't recored in the Bible, forget it. It is someone that needs to go to a psycobabbler and lay on their couch and mumble about their "visions" or "dreams" or why they are on drugs, or what are their mental problems.

    You want to know what God has revealed to man, READ HIS WORD, THE BIBLE. If it is not in the bible, REJECT IT!!!

    James2

    [ February 25, 2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  9. donnA

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    Not a limit of God, but an understanding of His word. As shown to you many times in these forums God is the one who says in His word He no longer acts in some ways in the lives of man. People keep showing you what God has said in His word, you refuse to listen to His word.
    We must read scripture with understanding, something you will learn.
     
  10. JAMES2

    JAMES2
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    Kiffin:
    You quote the "church fathers." Well, all that means is that those individuals lived in a time closer to the New Teatament, and were in error sooner than most. Remember, there is a huge gulf between the writings of the Apostles, who were inspired, and the "fathers' who were not. Some of the early Christians, like those that defined the Trinity and fought some of the heritics are worthy of reading, but always keep in mind that they were not inspired. They had ideas, actually some of them really wild, that contradicted each other, so take what they with extreme reservation.

    The main miracle that God, by HIS Sovereign Grace, performs every day is the one miracle that is the most important: Regenerating a lost sinner, one that was DEAD in trespass and sin, and bringing that person by a MIRACLE of pure grace, out of the kingdom of darkness and putting them into the kingdom of light. Now, my friend, THAT is a MIRACLE!!!
    James2
     
  11. JAMES2

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    Hit the add reply button twice. Opps!!

    [ February 25, 2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  12. Kellisa

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    I guess I believe in part. I don't believe that God is using visions and tongues to speak to us now because we have his written word, but I do belive he still gives us signs, such as signs of the times and still performs miracles today. The very gift of salvation is a miracle to me.
     
  13. LP

    LP
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    Bottom line: I do not think we need to accept that everything that poses AS those gifts in certain circles of today ARE those gifts, in order to accept that the gifts of the Spirit are still in operation today.

    I will never forget reading the missionary book, "Bruchko." He had evangelized a tribe in S America. The tribe he evangelized and neigboring one had prior warred over who knows how long.

    But soon, a group of Bruchko's new converts began to get concerned over that neigboring tribe, who was a few days walk away.

    So, they up and took of in the night to tell them of Jesus.

    Now this is a tribe that had been known about by ethnogrophers, but had never before been pentrated by missionaries.

    A week or so later the group of young tribal converts returned with an incredible story of how they had preached Jesus to the other tribe and almost the whole tribe was saved. Bruchko was utterly stumped. A skilled linguist, he knew the two tibes' languages were not intelligible with one another. Yet, here was this group of young tibesmen who told of this story of how they preached Jesus to them and they were saved.

    Brucko later travelled to that other tribe and was amazed at what he found: a tribe that had been saved by Christ and His message. Still, no missionary contact had been made. How did they hear? How could they understand the young converts?

    That the young converts went and were given the gift of toungues seemed the only, only possible explanation. Now, the new converts' story made perfect sense.

    We so often get so blinded by our own small little Christian and denominational worlds that we tend to impose those small little worlds on what the Scriptures say about what God can and cannot do.

    But A.W. Tozer pretty much Scripturally demolishes the myth that the gifts of the Spirit, including certain sign gifts, have passed away at the death of the Apostles. It is in the little book of his called "Keys to the Deeper Life." We would all do well to get hold of it and read it, and adjust ourselves accordingly.

    [ February 25, 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: LP ]
     
  14. Kiffin

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    Let me tell you a testimony that a pastor who pastors a Landmark Baptist church told years ago.

    He had been sharing the Gospel to this man in his church. The man remained hardhearted until one night about 2 to 3 AM in the morning this man woke the pastor up at his home pounding on his door.

    The man told the pastor he had a dream. In this dream he was walking on a road that led to a Lake of Fire. A angelic type figure in white that looked just like his pastor kept running in front of him telling him to turn back. The man awoke after that. The man was converted in that early morning after the Pastor presented him the Gospel.

    The question I ask is did not God use a dream (or some might say a Vision) to help convert this man?
     
  15. Kiffin

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    LP stated,

    Very true! Just because one believes the Gifts are still active does not mean he embraces the entire Charismatic movement. The later Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones, and Reformed Baptists such as Dr. Wayne Grudem and John Piper are just a few who believe the Power Gifts are still in operation.
     
  16. Overdose

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    Not a limit of God, but an understanding of His word. As shown to you many times in these forums God is the one who says in His word He no longer acts in some ways in the lives of man. People keep showing you what God has said in His word, you refuse to listen to His word.
    We must read scripture with understanding, something you will learn.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am sorry, show then where GOD say's that? So I guess the Gospel changed too, since GOD has?
    Peace,
    OD
     
  17. LP

    LP
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    I generally agree with the pro-gift arguments here. I will not even get into my own experiences--well, here is one small one. [​IMG]

    I was in El-Salvador as a missionary and was travelling with one other person in the outskirts of San-Salvador. We were hurrying on our way back to meet with our larger team. We were passing many small businesses as we scurried along.

    Suddenly, I was arrested in my spirit. "Go back to that warehouse."

    I did and as soon as I walked in I felt the Spirit of God in the place, strong. Inside was a lone man of about 25. The place was filled with Catholic paraphenalia--images of Christ and to saints, buring candles, and the like, and he was deeply involved with contemplating them.

    "Tell him that I love him just as much as I love and loved the saints."

    I did so with a power not my own and the man immediately broke. God had been calling and calling him to Himself but there was the traditional Catholic hierarchial structure in his mind that would not allow him to give in. He was forever to be a second class person in the eyes of God, and he could not accept that. Just those words to him, the words God said and I spoke, broke down his barrier and he was saved.

    Without "the word of knowledge," it would not have happened.

    [ February 25, 2002, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: LP ]
     
  18. donnA

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    You have been shown in post after post, you resuse to listen to scripture. In reading throught your various posts It seems to em you purposely seek to misunderstand, not only the posts, but scripture, you want scripture to say what you want it too, and refuse to acknowledge when ohters point out to you what scripture actually says. Your following a man made doctrine that didn't even start till 1909 (or some date in that neighborhood, someone actually posted a link somewhere here).
     
  19. Overdose

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    That's it you hit on the head KATIE, not only are you a theology major, but a Psychic as well and can read me like a book. Listen I am not sure what post's you are talking about? If anyone has shown me any solid and sound scripture for any thread topic I've posted on then I would have taken it to heart. As far as a manmade doctorine, last I checked GOD wasn't a man. So please no bashing, read your bible some more, and gain understanding. [​IMG]
    Peace,
    OD
     
  20. Bugman

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    The gift of phrophacy is not given to us now as it was before Christ. Before Christ it was the only way for God to get his message to us, but with christ everyone has the holy spirit in them that are saved. Phrophacy is still used (Revelations is after Christ, Acts where there is phrophacy and Paul's letters as well) but it is not the main way of recieving a message from God.

    Bugman
     

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