Sin Essential to God's Purpose in Christ !

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Dec 19, 2014.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    In God being the First cause of sin into His World/ Creation, He by His Wisdom, deemed it essential for His Own Glory, and the accomplishment of His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:8-11

    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Even Christ desired and anticipated the Glory and Joy that was to follow His death of redemption for sin, for which He came into the world Heb 12:2

    2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    When was this Joy set before Him ? We believe before the foundation Prov 8:31

    31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights/joy were with the sons of men.

    1 Pet 1:11

    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    For these things were set before and appointed the Son of God in the Eternal Counsels before the world began, so it should be quite obvious the world began in order to accomplish the Eternal Purpose in Christ, and hence sin was essential to that Purpose !
     
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    That God is the First and Primary cause of the evil in our hearts is perceived by the godly david, for his prayer here indicates that Ps 141:4

    4 Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.

    The word incline here means:

    iii.to bend, turn, incline

    Or Ps 119:36

    36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

    And coveteousness is Idolatry Col 3:5

    Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

    And the psalmist prays, to God not to incline his heart to coveteouness which is idolatry !

    These verses also show that the truly godly do not believe in freewill of man ! The corruptions of mens hearts are under the government of God's purpose, along with any that may entice them; which goes for the devil, our own evil nature such as James 1:13 ; the originating cause of all evil, to include moral evil, is the will , purpose, or predetermined counsel of God !

    God is said to be the doer of the evil, even when subordinate causes were employed by Him, such as in the case with the godly Job, and what saith he to his desponded wife, as evil prevailed in their life ? Job 2:10

    10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

    Now the word for evil here is the same as that in Isa 45:7 ! Now part of that evil that Job acknowledges as being directly from the Hand of God was ethical and moral evil ! Was not the thieving of his cattle and murder of his servants by the sabeans morally evil of them as per Job 1:14-15

    14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the ***** feeding beside them:

    15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

    Thats Two violations of God's Moral Law Ex 20:13,15

    13 Thou shalt not kill.

    15 Thou shalt not steal.

    And yet Job acknowledges that God was the first cause of those men doing that evil against Him, He actually said God was the doer of the evil !

    Job 2:10

    10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

    Why didnt he say that they received evil from the hand of the devil or from the hands of the sabeans ? 174
     
  3. PreachTony

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    So man has no choice but to do evil, and it's God's design that we do evil?

    Wow. Just wow.

    For the record, how did David ask God to not turn his heart toward evil if David lacks the free will to be able to ask such? Or are you stating that man is nothing more than a puppet of God?
     
  4. InTheLight

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    Indeed. I'm glad someone else responded to Savedbymercy. I thought about it, but figured the conversation was headed in this direction. Get ready to hear that man is responsible for sin, and then a lot of tap dancing culminating with, "it's a mystery".
     
  5. The Archangel

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    For the record...

    I will state that I do not agree with what savedbymercy has written. It is possible to be a Calvinist and not affirm what savedbymercy has written.

    The Archangel
     
  6. plain_n_simple

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    So God put the pride in Lucifer, then God saw that pride was in Lucifer.
     
  7. plain_n_simple

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    So the pride was put in Lucifer, the same pride that God resists. Interesting.
     
  8. plain_n_simple

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    God gave us crack and Meth, so it will destroy people, so that they will maybe call out to Jesus, so He will have something to do.
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    Adam's sin and consequences purposed by God !

    That the World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose from sin in Christ is quite obvious in the fact that Christ was set up, foreordained to redeem God's Elect before the foundation 1 Pet 1:18-20

    18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Now, was Adam Created from the dust of the ground before the world was Created ? So why is it that people think that it was not God predetermined will for Adam to sin and bring in the need for Redemption by the blood of Christ Rom 5:12

    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:175
     
  10. savedbymercy

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    Excuse me, why have you evaded all my points made in the previous posts ? If you would like to discuss or debate them, then please review the points I made with scripture to at least show you understood my points even though you have the right to disagree with them ! Thanks !
     
  11. Don

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    Since all savedbymercy's posts here are foundations for the same premise, let's show one of them to be false: the discourse about Job.

    When Job referenced receiving evil from God, one has to consider ALL of scripture. At the beginning of Job, we read and therefore know that Satan was the actual doer of the evil, not God. Satan asked permission, God allowed.

    Thus, the statement that Job 2:10 is an indication that God does evil is erroneous.

    What we see here from savedbymercy is what we saw in a previous thread regarding Matthew 23:23 -- either an ignorance of the importance of context, or a willful misrepresentation of scripture.

    And for what it's worth, I no longer believe savedbymercy is trying to espouse a calvinist viewpoint. He/she sounds more like they're trying to convince us of a "special revelation."
     
  12. PreachTony

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    My apologies, savedbymercy. From now on, unless I'm quoting scripture, I'll just let you misrepresent the Bible and, as Don so pointed out, apparently posit a "special revelation." I have discussed in other threads with you why I believe your point is erroneous, but you continue to push this notion that only the scripture from your OP is allowable. That makes sense, as you wouldn't really want to allow alternative viewpoints, would you?
     
  13. steaver

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    Is it possible to be a Calvinist and misapply or misrepresent or misinterpret Scripture?
     
  14. OldRegular

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    I said the following on another thread:

    The OP for this thread is a perfect example of what I was indicating in the quote!
     
  15. kyredneck

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    ...but is this the way God Himself views it? Consider God's own words:

    And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil: and he still holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Job 2:3

    God had to drop the hedge about Job before Satan could cause him harm:

    10 Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath, on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
    11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face. Job 1

    And compare:

    And Jehovah turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: and Jehovah gave Job twice as much as he had before. Job 42:10

    With 2 Tim 2:

    26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

    Those taken captive are done so at the will of God, not the devil.

    This is actually a fascinating topic, to peek into the glimpse we're given of the goins' on behind the heavenly scenes.
     
  16. The Archangel

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    Absolutely. It is possible for a Calvinist and a non-Calvinist to miss the point of the text of Scripture.

    The Archangel
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Agreed. Any one person does not have all truth on all things.
    For anyone to suggest such is foolish.:thumbsup:
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    savedbymercy


    This as written is profane and pure error.This is not the teaching of the bible at all.
     
  19. steaver

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    Ok good. From some of your camp members comments it appeared that Calvinist believe it could not be possible to be wrong about TULIP. So it is possible that you are misinterpreting scriptures? As it is possible that anyone could be?
     
  20. Don

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    I believe I mentioned that God permitted; but savedbymercy's claim is that God is a doer of evil.

    Your claims here support that God permits; that it's even according to His plan; but your claims do not support savedbymercy's claim that God is a doer of evil.
     
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